Announcer: Wall Street Unplugged looks beyond the regular headlines heard on mainstream financial media to bring you unscripted interviews and breaking commentary direct from Wall Street right to you, on Main Street.

Frank Curzio: What’s going on here? It’s May 1. I’m Frank Curzio, this is the Wall Street Unplugged podcast where I break down the headlines and tell you what’s really moving these markets. Man, there’s so much going on right now. Earning season in full bloom. And yes, I was surprised by those Google numbers. I’d be worried if I were you. Analyze that, I’ll cover that on Frankly Speaking, get a lot of questions on it, and I know the protocol is to basically buy every large CATT technology company, especially the things that decline in value, be careful with Google. I’ll explain why on Frankly Speaking podcast but, in a middle earning season, lots of fun.

We also had Arya Stark, killing the night king and saving the seven kingdoms. Holy cow, that episode of Game of Thrones was awesome this week. I love that show. Man, it was really cool. They were just showing when it happened. Again, hopefully it’s not a spoiler alert. You should’ve seen it by now if you’re a fan, you had to see it by now. If not, too bad for you. I’m going to spoil it. But it was really cool. They would show 1000 people watching it as soon as it happened, and it’s people going crazy.

But yeah, all this stuff going. Got the NBA playoffs going on right now where, I don’t know, when did the Eastern conference become more exciting than the Western conference? Kawhi Leonard and Bead, Simmons, Greek Freak, Kyrie Irving. Man, those Eastern conference playoff games have been awesome thus far, while West Coast, Houston, Golden State, just complaining to the refs, trying to draw fouls on every three-pointer they shoot, kind of boring and ridiculous.

And then you have the hockey playoffs, and my hockey fans out there was emailing me and I’m a Rangers fan. But I could feel for the Islanders. I mean, when I was growing up, we hated each other. Rangers and Islanders fans hated each other. Going to Ranger games, worse than Philadelphia Eagles, I mean, if you were at a Ranger game and someone had an Islander shirt, people just throw sodas at the guy as he was walking around. It was really crazy when I was younger. But Islanders had been kind of non-existent and now they’re almost favored to win after the first-round sweep. But they lost two games after missing seven open-net shots. It was just crazy. And then going into the next game … But Carolina looks pretty good here. Bruins, Blue Jackets, that series is awesome. Avalanche, Sharks, you have San Jose, Dallas, again, just so much going on.

Throw in the fact that I’m heading to Vancouver after this podcast to meet some investors for Curzio Equity Owners in a token offering, but it was so much going on. And then, in a couple weeks, we’re having Mother’s Day, which is on May 12th. So definitely don’t forget that, it’s probably worse than forgetting your anniversary because moms like to know they’re appreciated, especially my daughters’ mom who really does a ton and probably works even harder than me and is incredible.

But you know what? I want to share a story with you really quick. I love sharing personal stories with you. But I wanted to get your advice on this because I had an interesting conversation with my wife and it was about getting cards for each other over the holidays, whether it’s your birthday, your anniversary, whatever, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day. But I never knew this about her, I don’t know why I never knew this, but my wife told me that she likes to buy cards in bulk. So she’ll go to the store and buy them at the same time, so it’s like, “Hey, let me get five anniversary cards, five birthday cards.” You know, cards for all the birthdays and stuff like that. And I’m not known as a sensitive guy. Maybe I’m a little bit sensitive sometimes, but the fact that she buys cards in bulk was kind of wrong.

When I had this conversation with her, she thought I was coming out of left field. And maybe we just switched roles, I have no idea. Because for me, when you’re buying your spouse a card, it’s personal. Especially when you’re buying, you know, not just your spouse, or your mom. It’s that personal card. And so much happens every single year, especially when you’re married right? Sometimes you have good years and sometimes you have rough years, that’s marriage.

And one of our rough years, a couple years ago when I had my back surgery, my wife found out she had breast cancer. She’s cancer-free now. We got surgery within, I want to say, a month of each other. It was a difficult year, and every single year’s different because so much happens. When you’re married, it’s almost like, “Hey, I can’t believe we survived another year!” I’m just kidding, I’m just kidding.

But seriously, what I buy a card for my wife has a lot to do with what happened over the past few months. So I buy a card and I look, and I read them and, again, I feel like we’re switching roles here a little bit. For example, last year, you guys know how busy I was, into this year. I launched my security token offering, I was working, man, 15-hour days literally seven days a week, going crazy. And she was doing so much with the kid, she really held the fort down. She was very understanding and she knew I was trying to do something that really was never done before, so it required all of my attention and it was a steep learning curve. Combine that with operating a business, following the markets every day, writing newsletters, hosting two podcasts.

Yeah, it was a six to eight-month period where it’s insane. So for me, at our anniversary, I would find a card that encapsulates what we went through for the year and saying, “Hey, I really appreciate you being there for me,” whatever. But my wife, buying a bunch of generic cards at the same time and then she’ll write something nice in them. But still, I don’t know how you would buy cards in advance. I mean, am I coming out of left field with this? But this was a really debatable conversation.

Not that it bothered me a ton, but we had this conversation. She was viewing it like I was crazy, and for me, I thought, “Hey, come on.” You can never tell your wife face-to-face that she’s wrong. So I didn’t want to say, “You’re totally wrong,” or whatever. But it was a big back and forth. But I’m curious to hear from you, because for the first time in over 10 years that I’m married, close to 12 now, I think I’m right on something when it comes to my wife. At least in her view. I think I’m right on this one, but I want to hear from you guys.

Frank@curzioresearch.com. And look, I love to share my personal stories with you because it just shows that one, it’s therapy, it’s great, guys. You should have your own podcasts, it’s great just to get everything out. But two, look, I’m just a regular guy just like you guys. You listen to me. Behind the scenes, a lot of you haven’t seen me, seen me at conferences and stuff like that. But we all go through the same shit, we all have the same problems. We all, you know, go back and forth with the kids and the wives and the husbands and stuff like that. And I just like to get real with you, especially the opening because I feel like so many of you guys are family. And plus, you guys have given me great advice when it comes to family and wives and marriage and stuff like that over the years. That’s why I want to get your thoughts on this at frank@curzioresearch.com.

Now, brand new guest I’m interviewing today. His name is Matt Rizvi. And Matt is an amazing copywriter. Created his own company, he trains copywriters, a whole program, fantastic. And we recently did business together. He wrote a copy package for us that I truly believe is going to be a game changer for Curzio Research because, as you know, most of you have been listening to me for a while, maybe we have some first-time listeners to the podcast, a lot of you are subscribers to my services. But in order for us to grow, our job is to really get our name out there to people who are not familiar with our brand.

And that’s difficult, right? Because you got to start from scratch. You can’t say, “Oh, well, you know who I am.” I love when people say that, it’s the worst thing in the world. But you have to prove yourself, and with this promotion, what we’re doing, I’m very, very excited. And you should be excited too, guys, especially you’re an investor in our security token, you have an equity stake in the company, because we got a couple of really good promotions coming out that I think is going to really, really build our business, which means what? Which means more revenue comes in, which means we hire more editors for you guys. We have more … The educational platform gets developed quickly. We have conferences.

So all this is relevant, and having Matt on here is … I wanted to give you a behind-the-scenes look at actually how important copywriting is to the financial newsletter business. If you don’t think it’s important, think about all the promotions our competitors send out, those are all copy package. All those things that you get three, four, five, 10 times a day from all the newsletters you sign up, whatever. We don’t send them out that much, but you’re going to realize why this is such an interesting part of the financial newsletter business and why copywriting should be a major part of a lot of businesses. That should come with marketing.

Matt’s the best out there, he’s fantastic. He’s going to go to behind-the-scenes. Again, I know you guys like when I have analysts on in stocks, but also, what I love doing, and I want to get your feedback. This podcast is about you, not about me. I want to show you the behind-the-scenes. Give you that backstage pass where it’s not just, “Hey, we’re giving you a stock pick.” You go through education, you go through traveling, and that’s what you’re going to see with this promotion of how much research goes to every one of my recommendations, every one of the editors here, including Alkin.

But we’re in the field, we’re interview, this is going to have interviews with some of the leading people in the industry. And not just the executives, but experts throughout the whole industry. And you’re going to see, I’m trying out a product that … Wait until you see when I try it out, it’s kind of crazy. And you’re going to see this whole entire thing, but a lot of that has to do with what’s behind that, the whole copy package. That’s how we market. I didn’t have that when I worked for my dad. So our company was kind of small. We did know how to market ourselves, but other companies know how to market themselves tremendously, but sometimes they take shortcuts which hurts subscribers which are going to go over.

But I think this is going to be a pretty cool interview. I don’t do it often, but just to give you a behind-the-scenes look at what we’re doing, how we’re billing the company, and how important copywriting is, not just to the financial newsletter industry, but for anyone who owns their own business. It’ll definitely give you a good education. Also, I know there’s a lot of copywriters that listen to this podcast, I get emails from you all the time. Definitely give this a listen, it’s going to be really cool, you’re going to identify with a lot of stuff. And if you’re a junior copywriter, it’s definitely going to help you to learn more about Matt. It’s a really fantastic interview coming up.

Then, my educational segment. I’m going to share one of the biggest secrets on how to generate a fortune from buying some of those hated stocks. This is a lesson you’re not going to see any place else, you’re not going to find in investment books. Not going to hear it being talked about podcasts. But it’s a really great lesson on how to avoid the noise that you hear everywhere, from analysts and short sellers, from the media, and buying to names that sometimes have zero risk, but yet when you’re buying these at these levels and hated companies, you’re just trading that 52 and close, if you’re right, and I’m not talking about catching the falling knife yet. That’s why these segments can be very important, but if you’re right, you’re looking at 2x, 4x, 10x gains I’ve seen.

If you’re able to follow this certain set of rules, it’s going to help you buy into those stocks that everybody hates, that nobody would touch, that you really just leave off your radar. And then, hey, a couple months later you realize that stock’s up 200% and you’re like, “Whoa, what just happened?” No. We want to get into these things before they go up 200%, because they’re trading at super-depressed valuations.

Guys, please, definitely give a listen to this segment. I won’t disappoint, I promise. But, before I get to that secret, I’m going to share with you how to spot the best companies, the best hated companies, exactly when to buy them.

Let’s get to my interview. A first time guest, and my buddy, and amazing copywriter, Matt Rizvi.

Matt, thanks so much for coming on Wall Street Unplugged.

Matt Rizvi: Frank, it’s an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Frank Curzio: We’ve got to become really good buddies lately since you’re doing a major project for us that we’re very, very excited about, guys. It’s going to launch soon, we’re not going to talk too much about it. But Matt is a big part of that. But let’s talk about your background, because copywriting is such a big part of our business. But in reality, it should be a big part of so many different businesses. And before we get into exactly what you’re doing for the newsletter and industry, and I love to give that backstage pass of what happens behind-the-scenes because all they see is a nice recommendation and how our business actually runs and why it has high margins and just incredibly [inaudible 00:12:03].

Before we get to that part, tell me, what made you become a copywriter? It’s a job that, when I look at copywriting, I mean a lot of times you’re writing another person’s name and it’s very detailed. It’s very difficult, but it requires an amazing set of skills that, I just think it’s something that’s rare in the industry. But what made you get into copywriting?

Matt Rizvi: Yeah, Frank, so it’s interesting, because copywriting, no one really grows up … When you’re a kid, you don’t wake up one morning and be like, “I want to grow up to be a copywriter.” But I always knew that I enjoyed writing. I was a decent writer when I was in school. I never knew what I wanted to really do with it. I always wanted to teach, I always loved just explaining things to people in really simple ways. Seeing them get that “Aha” moment. I’ve always really enjoyed coaching people.

And so I always wanted to be a teacher. Originally I thought I was going to be into history and, because I was a history major, that involved a lot of writing. So I’ve always enjoyed writing, but my dad was also really into internet marketing when I was a kid. And watching him start his own businesses taught me a lot about entrepreneurship, online marketing, direct response. And so I had this base knowledge of marketing and direct response. And then combining that interest with my interest to write, copywriting ended up becoming a really good fit. Because my dad was really interested in starting businesses and entrepreneurial, I always saw that as what I wanted to do.

And so, when I was very young, tried to connect myself with lots of mentors, people who could point me in the right direction of the best way to start my own business and people I’d like to learn from. One of my earliest mentors, when I was at an entrepreneurship camp, I want to say I was 21 years old. Went there and he was like, “If you want to start a business, number one skill you’ve got to learn that I would recommend is copywriting.” And at the time, I had heard of copywriting, and I knew a little bit about it. But I didn’t understand its importance. And I think most people who aren’t in the industry or don’t really know what copywriting is, it can go under the radar for most folks. But, like you said, it’s a critical part of so many businesses.

And once I found out how valuable it is, and just the … Like you mentioned, it requires a lot of combination of different skill sets: writing, psychology, ways for talking about finance, understanding the markets and all that. So it’s challenging, it’s fun, and if you do well, you can make a very good living off of it. And so, yeah, once I found out that, it’s kind of … A lot of people paint that picture of the freelance lifestyle, you get to work from home or set your own hours and write from a little cabin, like Walden or something like that. And that’s always appealed to me.

But yeah, there’s a lot to learn about copywriting, but not a lot of people know about it.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, and guys, I want to share a story with you, bring everyone in here of how important copywriting is. When I grew up, I was working for my late dad. My late dad had one of the best track records I’ve ever seen, outside of Peter Lynch. And I’m not saying that because it’s my dad, his average returns over, I think it was a 19-year period, was over 19%, which is incredible. And we had maybe 7000, 8000 subscribers, and we charged not too much for the newsletter, maybe anywhere from 99 to 1.99 at the time. But nobody really knew we existed. And we were a small shop.

Then going to the street and working with Kramer, you look street.com, they’d pull up their stock and you’d see the revenues that they generate. It’s around 50 million dollars a year they’re generating with sales. When I went to Stansberry, I understood. It was like I didn’t even understand [inaudible 00:15:39] industry, to be honest with you. Because the marketing behind it and the copy behind it, where almost every single editor had 10000, some of them over 100000 subscribers.

We had a newsletter, my newsletter, which had 20000 and plus subscribers on the front end, and they canceled it because it wasn’t that big. And when you have these copy packages, it’s basically finding a way to market your products to identify with people. And that’s what marketing is. You’re not going to say, “Hey, this product is good.” No, that’s not good enough. How do we sell it, how do we change the marketing strategy, how do we get this into people’s head to understand this? And when I look at copy and how we generated six million in sales in just two years, which may seem like a lot, when you look at some of the divisions, right Matt, like Stansberry, if you look at, these guys within the [Agora 00:16:24] Division, they’re generating 200 million dollar plus annual in sales. You can’t compare to the street and Jim Kramer, one of the most marketing people in the world. They really don’t understand the copy and the marketing angle like that.

For me, it’s just something that’s so valuable that so many people don’t know about, I feel like. And this could be used for different businesses. So I guess … Why don’t you take us through interacting with editors, how the whole process starts. And that’s going to give you a behind-the-scenes look, because a lot of editors can be devious, I’m not going to ask you to name which ones are and when you’re marking and the stuff like that. But go through the process from start and finish, because we were just in a studio together a couple weeks ago, writing the whole package, the package is done, now I’m taping it. We’ve done interviews and everything, it’s going to be really amazing, guys. You’re going to see it a week from now.

And take us through that entire process of how it works, how you talk to editors and how you build this project and how you actually get it out. And the goal is, “Hey, now we’re going to take promotion off of this.” Talk us through, I think it’s very interesting, especially for my audience to understand.

Matt Rizvi: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, naturally, people watching this are probably coming into contact with a lot of promotions that you either run for your business or Stansberry [inaudible 00:17:35] companies. But yeah, people who see those online or get our promotions have no idea all the work and time that goes into creating those promotions. So really, to start, the seed of the idea starts with just finding what we call, “a big idea.” Okay? And so, in our business, typically when we’re creating these promotions, the goal is to tell a story, talk about what’s happening in the markets or what’s happening geopolitically and how that’s going to affect people. And then connect that with the product and how this product is going to help you prepare for retirement or protect from what’s happening topically.

So finding that one idea that’s really going to resonate with people is step one, and it’s one of the most important parts. Probably there’s really just two big parts when it comes to creating big ideas and successful copy packages. Identifying the big idea is first and foremost, and then just executing that idea is obviously very important and very challenging too. But those are the two big things, you know. Once you have the idea, that’s a huge first step, but obviously executing is a really big challenge. But finding that idea, that can take a long time, honestly.

When working with copywriters, I’m sure you know, most people don’t expect, but copy packages can take months of prep and development to not just write and to produce and execute, but a lot of that work happens even before you’ve written a single word. Finding that big idea.

So, for copywriters to know what’s really going to resonate with the audience, especially in finance, you have to be reading all types of … The Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal or New York Times. Finding out what’s really topical, what are people interested in, what are people clicking on? For example, the election’s going on, right? So, if these election’s going on, everyone’s going to be talking about the election, it’s going to be really a big part of the news cycle. So, lots of people are going to be clicking on stories about the election. So then, the question becomes, what story is happening in the election that we can use and talk about, and what’s that effect going to be on people’s portfolios, and how can we connect that to our products and show how our product is going to help people even more because of what’s happening.

Finding that idea is a big challenge, especially, one of the biggest challenges is just the fact that often, that big idea that’s really saleable and really sexy right now, is often the worst advice you can give people. Unfortunately. And especially with the stock market and investing, if anything’s all over the news, if it’s really hyped up, chance are there’s a lot of people that’ve already invested in it, it’s not a great opportunity anymore.

So as a copywriter, and unfortunately not all copywriters take this approach where they actually care about making sure that they’re recommending products that are good for their customers. So you have to find a big idea that’s actually sexy, that’s going to sell, that’s going to grab people’s attention, but then you have to find a way to connect that with a product that actually works, and that’s going to be good for people long-term.

A great example of this would be Bitcoin, cryptocurrency, okay? End of 2018, obviously that was all over the news cycle. December, we saw huge gains go up in Bitcoin and all the cryptos. I loved it, a ton of money. But people were just … It was all over the news, everyone was talking about it, and obviously after the bubble burst, if you bought in December, you would’ve lost your shirt. So while that, topically, was great for copywriters if you wanted to write a package about investing in Bitcoin and published it in December 2018, you would’ve made a ton of money. But it would’ve been terrible for people who would’ve invested in Bitcoin. So that, ethically as a copywriter, is a challenge. It’s kind of like being a chef. You want your food to taste delicious, but you also want it to be healthy, and while it’s really easy to make a chocolate cake with tons of fat and sugar that’ll taste delicious, it’s much, much harder to make a delicious meal that’s also healthy too.

And so I have to kind of walk that line as a copywriter, finding these ideas that are really sexy, really intriguing, unique. But then tie them in with ideas that the editors can get behind that are actually really legitimate, safe and valuable investment opportunities. So, as we were talking about before, working with editors [inaudible 00:21:56] for that, and we want to find these ideas that people will like and are interested in, but then I have to look through the editor’s portfolio and fine, what are the big opportunities that they’re seeing right now, that they really believe in? Because I don’t want to just come to an editor and say, “Hey, I really like this stock, you should promote it.” I want to find something that they really believe in and then find that gap between, or that connection I can bridge. The big idea that’s happening right now being connected to what they’re doing.

One way we did this, again with Bitcoin, would be when Bitcoin was really popular, we would have ads and stuff like that. It would be like, “Don’t buy Bitcoin before you read this,” or, “Better than Bitcoin.” So basically, you’re taking your … We call it “news jacking.” You get to hijack the hype around Bitcoin, but not actually tell people to buy Bitcoin. So lots of use that, the zeitgeist in the really topical things that are going on, and then still connect that with the medicine, the good recommendations that we want to give people.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, you covered a lot there. I mean, there’s a lot of flaws in what you said, too, in the business model, right? Because these are the things that people need to worry about, and that’s why I wanted to have you on, because a lot of times, people say, “Whoa, we get all these promotions all the time,” and you have to be very careful. Because one of the things you said is sometimes copywriters bring idea to the analyst, because they know they can sell it, right? Which is bad, because you really want your analyst recommending your stock, you don’t want the copywriter, but the copywriter knows he can sell the crap out of it, which is good for the publisher, it’s good for everybody, except the people.

Mom and pop investors, investors who are buying this, you talk about topics are important where, in 2013 I believe, we came out with a marijuana promo, and it was just right after … Colorado was the first state to prove it, legalization for just recreational use. Washington quickly followed, nobody cared. And we didn’t generate any revenue, the promo bombed. You look today, you see Money Masters, [inaudible 00:23:58] ads every place and they’re making a lot of money. But it gets to the point where sometimes, these things sell, but do you want to buy canopy? Do you want to buy a lot of these marijuana companies?

I mean, it’s kind of a [crosstalk 00:24:09] industry, depending on when the election is, right? You’re going to see some states approve it, which is positive, and after that, a lot of these things come down. But you’re getting into trends at the top, and the flaw in our business, just those alone, but you’re looking at companies and folks on profits only. And I understand, profits are very important. We have a company of investors, I can’t say, “Well, we don’t care about profit.” Of course we care about profits, but at what expense? Is it, do I bury my investors and get out a copy package at the top of a cycle that I know is going to do well in terms of sales. We’re going to sell the shit out of it, but we’re going to talk about a trend that, deep down, I know you shouldn’t really be investing in.

And sometimes we see that out there, where people are just like, “Hey, I know I’m going to generate money of this.” It makes money, the publisher makes money, and unfortunately, the advice that they’re get, they destroy a lot of these investors because the investing at the top of the cycle. This is why I like working with you, because we’ve come up with an idea that is original. We’ve come up with an idea that makes sense, it’s a high-growth company that very people have heard of. And more important, there’s just a feel good story to it that I love. It happened to be very personal to me where, what we’re doing in the device I’m talking about is actually going to save lives. Tons of lives.

And how is it working with something like that? Because it could result, Matt, in you creating packages where, all right, you might not generate as much money, but you will do well. But compared to writing about the top trends where, like you said, you know that maybe these things are pretty top heavy and it’s just … The Bitcoin example you gave is, people got wrecked and there was a lot of promotions that came out right at the top of that market.

Matt Rizvi: Sure. I’ll quote Spiderman for a moment. “With great power comes great responsibility,” I think that goes especially with copywriters. We have this power to be able to persuade people and convince them to buy things, and so we have a, I feel, internal responsibility to make sure the things that I am selling are legitimate and the claims I am making are true, and that these are really going to help people. I mean, it’s just my own moral quandary about it. But honestly even without the virtue signaling, you know, even if you don’t care about morals at all, it’s the smart decision to be aligned with your [inaudible 00:26:24] best interest because that’s be the best long-term interest of your business.

When we were in Baltimore, we were talking about just a saying that’s just too pervasive in our business, and it really just makes me sick to my stomach to hear. That expression, the “track record doesn’t matter.” When we mention that, there’s so many newsletter editors in the business basically because copywriting is so critical to this industry. If you have good copy, then people think it doesn’t matter if you can recommend good stock. You can still sell newsletters even if you’re a terrible stock analyst. And I hate that mentality, because the thing is, when people do end up signing up for your newsletter, and they see the track record, once they see the track record and they see how bad the stock picks are, they’re going to cancel.

And so, the long-term success of financial publishing businesses like ours are highly dependent on recurring revenue. We want people to stick around long-term, and they’re not going to do that if they’re getting burned by this hype-y stocks with no real fundamentals to them. So really, the chart, we compare businesses across the industry. Some businesses have much higher churn than others, in terms of customers. They’ll bring on a customer and maybe they’ll only retain that customer for less than a year. Whereas some businesses, yours is one of them, you have customers who’ve been with you for years and years, even over decades, right?

Frank Curzio: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Rizvi: So building relationships like that are so much more valuable than the quick church of … Sure, you may get a lot more scale early on with your advertising. Sure, you may be able to grow the list tremendously. Maybe you add 100000 end of the year. But if 70000 names end up unsubscribing and canceling, then you’re just on a treadmill. So, the real long-term goal is to build quality relationships, build positive goodwill with your customers and [inaudible 00:28:28], we all know that goodwill, that shows up on balance sheets, right? That builds value in your business to create that goodwill with customers. I think you’ve done that tremendously in just your brand and the podcast.

I know it’s easy to think that, “Oh, you’re going to sacrifice money by making the moral, the good choice?” But I don’t see that at all.

Frank Curzio: And I want to bring up this point too, because for me, I’ve been researching stocks for over 25 years. I love what I do, obviously, I have my own company at Curzio Research. But I love teaching people, and it’s not that I’m some kind of genius, but over 25 years, I’ve made lots of mistakes. And I like to help people avoid those mistakes, and limit your losses and put stops on why it’s so important, and it’s more than just recommending a stock, but actually teaching these people. Because I just feel that when you teach them, that there’s more of a bond there as well, because it shows that you care. And you do. I mean, I’m doing a free podcast for 10 years, for free, which resulted in me starting this company. It was definitely worth it. We’re doing pretty good in terms of generating sales.

But for you, you’re in the same position when it comes to copywriting. You’re an experienced copywriter, and now you’ve started your own company, and talk a little bit about that, because we do have a lot of copywriters in here all the time. And I’m sure they’re listening to this right now, but talk about what you’re doing, because it’s kind of like what I’m doing except it’s on the copywriting side.

Matt Rizvi: Yeah, yeah. Like I mentioned, I started off as a copywriter and I got into copywriting because I really wanted to start my own business. I always enjoyed teaching. And after I really got a lot of that experience learning that Agora and Stansberry and that … As you mentioned, that company has just some of the best copywriters in the world learning from them. Finally, do you know what’s the value that I can bring to the table? How can I … What’s the need perspective? What’s the etch I can help teach people about?

And so, I was racking my brain for a long time, you know? At first, I wanted to get into finance, but I realize just the experience I had with copywriting and my background and my passion for it, it seemed like a really good fit. I enjoy writing and I enjoy publishing, and it’s cool to work with guys like you and be a ghostwriter and to do that kind of stuff, but it’s also a lot of fun for me to write my own voice and to work with people one-on-one and to … [inaudible 00:30:49] email, and I have a weekly coaching call. It’s just a blast, you know? Creating that content. I’m sure you love it, doing this podcast every week. It’s just a cool opportunity and it’s not like a major revenue drive for me, but honestly I just do it because it’s a lot of fun.

I like meeting people, it grows my network. I’m engaged with copywriters all the time who are working on different projects. And because I’m giving them feedback I’m able to … I’m very curious, so it fills that gap for me so I don’t get bored. They’re constantly giving me all these ideas and I get to bounce them off them, so it’s a lot of fun. But absolutely, I’ve run into the exact same problems and challenges doing my businesses, just like any direct response info business. So, I have to build my list, find people who are interested in copywriting, which is actually much more challenging, I think, than finance. Because it’s there’s a lot more investors than people who are just think of, “Oh, I want to be a copywriter.”

So mine is much smaller than [inaudible 00:31:48], but I got a good core group of guys who are really excited, want to enjoy writing and want to be able to have that kind of freedom and develop a skill that can provide income for them for a very long time and be able to have the freedom to work from anywhere or set their own hours and pick their own clients. It’s cool that I’m able to share things about it that copywriting has given to my life and share that with other people.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, and for me, I just want to give everyone the background of everything. Sometimes it’s like, “Well, Frank, you advertise.” We don’t advertise nearly as much as our competitors, sending out promotions all the time. But there’s times where we have to promote, we have to generate money. We’re very selective, and when we find a good idea, we do it. But even explain, for anyone out there just looking to become a copywriter. The amount of money, especially in the financial newsletter industry where we’ve seen companies within different divisions generate 200 million dollar plus in revenue annually, some of these packages are seven, even eight figures, which copywriters get a percentage of.

I guess talk a little bit on that end, because when you have junior copywriters coming alone and you’re teaching them, but when you really find the right idea and you’re really committed to this, I mean, this is a very high-demand job that people would love to get great copywriters at their shop. I just feel like it’s a job that too many people don’t talk about. Yet, if you’re really committed, it’s not easy, but if you are and you become really good at it, you could make a lot of money, can’t you?

Matt Rizvi: Yeah, absolutely Frank. And I think that’s definitely one thing that attracts a lot of people to copywriting. And I think that’s something that drives people initially, you know? They think, “Oh, it’s going to be a lot of money,” and it’s true. I think a lot of people want to be writers, they have that dream of the writer’s lifestyle. And [inaudible 00:33:32] time to achieve that, but it doesn’t happen quickly, and it’s a real challenge with copywriting because like we mentioned, it’s a combination of lots of different skills. So you have to be a really good writer, you have to understand psychology, and you also have to understand the product and the market that you’re talking about, whether it’s finance, whether it’s health, whether it’s internet marketing. Whatever your niche is, you have to become an expert in that field in addition to having the skill set to write, in addition to understanding sales and psychology and persuasion.

So it takes a long time to learn, and a lot of people think that … I’ll talk about the big money in a minute. There’s big money, but I just want people to know that becoming a copywriter is not like you’re just going to start and make a million dollars overnight. When I first started, when I became a copywriter at Stansberry, Mike Palmer who’s a copy chief there, he’s a legend in the business. He told all of us, you come in, you work in-house, you become junior. You work two or three years here, and then you’re never going to have to worry about finding clients again.

And when he said that, I was really skeptical, but he was right 100%. Essentially being at Stansberry, just that experience being inside Agora as a copywriter allowed me to easily grow my network and just have clients on tap. But the pay, as you were mentioning, because Agora, the scale at seven, eight figure promotions. But the real attraction of being a copywriter is, unlike most writing professions whether you’re just a freelancer writing block quotes or something like that, you’ll get a base fee, maybe you’ll get a couple hundred bucks for writing an e-book or whatever.

But within our copywriting, you almost own the copy. And because of that, a lot of times you get to negotiate royalties on the packages as you write. So I’ve known copywriters who’ve written packages that have earned them, individually, seven figures. I mean, at Agora at least, it’s pretty … If you’re not making six figures as a copywriter and you’re working at Agora, then you’re doing something wrong. And that’s really attractive, there’s a lot of upside opportunity to copywriting and the fact that you earn royalties on it, you can just build this pipeline of copy projects. And if you have a good promo, those things can run year after year after year.

So just like writing a hit song, they keep playing those songs on the radio and you get a royalty every time. Same thing happens with promos. So that’s definitely one of the coolest parts about being a copywriter is once you start building up your pipeline of projects you’ve created, and if they’re good they keep going for a long time, you can have this huge pipeline of passive income just sending you royalty checks.

Frank Curzio: All right, so we’ve got about three minutes left. What’s the not-so-cool things about becoming a copywriter, because I think I’m pretty good at this where I’ve worked with some of the copywriters in the world thanks to being at Stansberry and I was very open to it. I check my ego at the door, because I would be like, “Hey, this is a great situation, I think we could market this,” and they’re like, “No, it’s not going to work.” Because it’s just a different mentality, they know what sells and that results in it being very selective with your promotion. Talk about some of the tough things, because I know one specifically and mentioned it earlier briefly, is dealing with some of the editors. You can deal with very, very big egos when it comes to writing. People love their writing. You’re writing in someone else’s name and sometimes they’re very passionate about it, and …

Talk about the editor problem. What are some of the other things? Because it is a very difficult job though.

Matt Rizvi: Yeah, absolutely. So there’s lots of challenges to it. Like as you mentioned, working with editors and getting them behind your idea is a big challenge. I think one of the biggest challenges is just being consistent. So writing every day. A lot of copywriters, they don’t have that good habit of writing. And I think a lot of people who want to be a freelance copywriter have the dream of the freedom of it, and because they’re so attracted to that freedom that they don’t have the discipline that it requires to be a good copywriter. Which means writing every day, you have to do the research, you have to get on the phone with your clients and actually interview them.

I see this all the time when I’m reviewing copy from writers and juniors. They’re sending the copy in. It’s just boring, it’s generic, there’s no story to it. I’m like, “Did you get on the phone and talk to them,” and they, “No.” And I think that’s one of the biggest mistakes I see. Rookies, they’re not willing to go the extra mile. And if you want to find those big ideas, those packages that really resonate, the really unique things that is going to separate your customer from everyone else, then you have to do the legwork. Get on the phone. Ask the important questions. I record all my interviews, we did this for multiple promotions we worked on.

Frank Curzio: Of course.

Matt Rizvi: But that’s just the research aspect of it, and just the discipline to write every single day. Most people who get into copywriting don’t do those two things, and that’s why they fail.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, nah, that’s cool. I love giving both sides of the story. Because it is a job you can make a lot of money on, but it’s also very, very difficult. So, again, I have a lot of copywriters that email me all the time and listen to the podcast, and I’m sure they’re interested in this interview. And I’m hoping that my audience is interested in the interview, because I’m giving it again. The backstage pass of what goes on, what happens in our business behind the scenes. But if someone wants to learn more information, Matt, how can they do that? And just, again, I know you got a lot of things going on, which is really cool with your company, but how can people learn more about you if they’re interested in becoming a copywriter or if they’re a current copywriter and just want to work with you.

Matt Rizvi: Absolutely. Well, I send around a daily copywriting tip via email over 365 days of the year, so if you want to sign up for my daily copywriting tip, I also have a bunch of bonus reports that teach you about copywriting, writing headlines, things like that. If you just go to MattRizvi.com, it’s my name. Matt Rizvi, Rizvi is spelled R-I-Z like zebra, V like Victor, I dot com. And then just enter your email address, I’ll send you all the bonuses, and you’ll get my daily packet-writing kits.

Frank Curzio: All right, man. Well, great stuff and listen, hopefully you join us again soon. And guys, definitely check out Matt’s stuff on his website and, again, thanks a lot for coming on man, I’ll talk to you soon.

Matt Rizvi: Yeah, absolutely Frank. It’s been an absolute blast, and it is one of many more to come.

Frank Curzio: Okay, great stuff from Matt. And time to time, I like bringing in new guests like Matt where … I know how much you guys love when I interview stock experts and they share tons of ideas and pics. But I also love giving you that behind-the-scenes access to encourage your research and just so you what I’m really trying to accomplish here since I truly believe there’s a dire need of original research, original ideas. Not just in the financial newsletter initiative, but even for hedge funds, investment managers. I mean, they’re having trouble finding new ideas as well, and the way we have things set up where, with this podcast with the network that’s created through this podcast with my current team in place. It’s truly giving our subscribers access to ideas you’re not going to find any place else. Especially now, in more of our high-priced newsletters. Which I think that’s why people pay those high prices, because you’re getting into a lot of ideas early, which is fantastic, and also showing you why we market.

Which I get a lot of questions, mostly from free people, “Oh, why am I getting sent this, this and that?” They just like free things. They want their free podcast, they want our free sites free forever. At the end of the day, I give away this free stuff so you can know exactly who we are, right? We’re an open book, this is what we do. And hopefully that’s going to lead to you subscribing to our services, and it has. [inaudible 00:41:01] models work because we’re credible. I’m on the podcast all the time, you see the research I’m doing. I’m going to Vancouver for three days right after this podcast. I’m on the road all the time trying to find ideas.

And my trip to Vancouver is more about me meeting with investors, but I think you get the point. But copywriting is really important, I just want to give you a little background on it. We’re not going to have tons of guests like that on, but let me know what you thought of the interview at frank@curzioresearch.com, I say it all the time, but I mean it. This podcast is about you, not about me. So again, let me know what you thought and feel free to email me at frank@curzioresearch.com.

Now, let’s get to the educational segment. So, over the past few years I’ve brought up some examples of how companies are able to adjust to problems and risks, especially if they can see them. Sounds kind of weird, but sometimes stuff happens. For our business, one of the big risks that happen that came out of left field was credit card processing, because a lot of our competitors are very aggressive and credit card processors view our business like they would view the porn industry: there’s a quick turnover, even though we don’t have a quick turnover. They just, you know, guilty by association.

And they held over a million dollars of our money for over a year. Think about that. We’re not a big business. But know we’ve weathered the storm. We got through it, and that’s a problem that just popped up and I’m glad it did because that much money and payroll and stuff, you always have to be very careful. It made us budget more, made us cut back on different things, and that’s how you run a business. Because it’s not going to be great all the time where you can spend money whenever you want. There’s things that are good, things that are bad, especially during the early stage on a growth trend, that kind of threw a curve ball at us.

But I’m not talking about those type of problems. I’m talking about problems that you see in front of you. For example, 2013, the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world were about to see more than 300 billion in sales from their top-selling drugs come off patent. And that was going to happen over next six years. So you’re looking at industry leaders, Merck, J&J, they’re supposed to get hit the hardest because they have top-selling drugs. They’re going to lose their exclusivity.

If you’re not familiar what that means or what patents … Patents, there’s 20 years from the date of filing, and once a drug comes off patent, a generic company could basically create a copycat version and they’ll sell it for whatever, you know, a massive, massive discount. You know, 15 cents at a dollar, whatever, and it crushes the profits of these firms. That’s the way this business operates.

So if you’re a prudent investor and you’re looking at reading stories in 2013, you would say, “Wow …” It’s called a “patent cliff,” and they still have it now. Every year there’s more and more drugs falling off file, but you’d say, “Wow, that’s a huge risk.” I mean, a smart moved would avoid large pharmaceutical stocks 2013 since they were about to see a massive decrease in sales and profits. And guys, you know that earnings drive stock prices, and if you’re seeing that, these stocks are going to get hit.

But from 2013 to 2018, something interesting happened. Merck, J&J did not see their stock prices plummet. In fact, the complete opposite happened, and they significantly out-perform the S&P 500 index. I’m not cherry-picking here and saying it’s just Merck and J&J. You could look at Pfizer, Abbott Laboratories, Eli Lilly, look at almost any one of them. Almost all of them out-perform the markets by a wide margin over the same time frame.

Now, how did this happen? Well, when you’re a major pharmaceutical company, you see the patent risk coming, right? They knew exactly which drugs in their pipeline are going to come off patent, they knew the exact date it was going to happen, they even know which generics are probably going to come out, they’re tied to the industry. So, since they saw that risk coming, to combat it, they changed their business model. They started aggressively investing money in small and mid-cap biotech companies if any of these drugs showed promise during their early testing phases. Then, hey, they have great balance sheets, and we’ll just acquire these companies. And that provided a growth component for an otherwise slow-growing, stable company.

Big pharma also started combining their signature drugs with numerous competitors. We’re seeing that in the market now, so it may sound counterintuitive, but if Pfizer Lipitor could show better results by combining it with, is it Crestor, for Merck, whatever it is, their cholesterol-lowering drug. If they combine those, that’s technically seen as a new drug. If they go through the approval process and all the testing phases, and that shows by combining these two drugs at lowest cost or even more than these two drugs do on their own, now they can get a patent on this drug. So it’s almost like getting another patent on Lipitor, but it’s merged with Crestor and that’s one of the ways that they were able to go around the system.

They wouldn’t do that from the start because they want all the profits for themselves, they only do it when their profits are going to go away, right? That’s business. Big pharma also started using their fortune’s balance sheets to what? Buy back stock and increase their dividends, which institutional investors, right, these major funds always love, they started pouring money into these new growth and income names. So this all pushed big pharma stocks a lot higher. So, in short, big pharma saw the patent cliff coming, they avoid the risk by adjusting their business models a year in advance. And over the past six years, they significantly outperform the markets.

You can go through industry to industry. Defense industry, 2012. Legislation was about to pass, in an effort to lower the huge deficit that they’re going to cut spending on all defense programs [inaudible 00:46:08]. Talk about 1.2 trillion in federal spending cuts, over a nine-year period. That’s significant. I mean, if you put it in perspective, that’s basically a 20% cut in contract awards across the board. Think about that, if you cut 20% of revenue for any company. We just saw Google report, and they usually report 20% annual growth for 14 straight quarters for ad sales, and this quarter, it declined, which is a surprise, supposed to grow a little bit more than 20%. It only grew by 15%, and look how hard the stock got nailed.

Imagine if sales declined even more than that. So, you’re looking at something that was a secular change in the industry. Now, if you were a smart investor, you’d be like, “All right, I’ve got to avoid the defense companies. I’m not going to buy Raytheon, Northrop, Lockheed, General Dynamics. Stay with me, I’m getting to the point here, guys. Because these guys are going to see a huge cut in sales and earnings, but since 2012 these guys did what the pharmaceutical companies did. Instead of investing in programs that were going to be cut, and say if those programs were manufacturing jets and tanks. Because, you know, we’re not so much at war, they turn their focus onto the areas where spending was going to increase for defense.

Drone manufacturing, submarines, missile defense systems, tack helicopters, again, these areas inside defenses, your spending was going to increase dramatically over the years, and just pull up an ETF for defense companies. Every one of those individually. You’re looking at ETF that’s up since 2012, defense ETF, 275% of the S&P 500 is up 135%. Which is amazing, because the industry is supposed to get killed.

Now, where am I going with all of this? I just recommended a stock in our crypto-intelligence newsletter. It’s a crypto that the entire world’s given up on, so many experts are saying this technology is going to be obsolete because the way it’s currently structured. But all the problems well-known by everyone, including all crypto-experts all over the world, and also, including the company, which is basically now addressing all of its flaws and providing updates and revamping the whole system, which is going to remove a lot of these risks.

So the thing crashed, this crypto crashed. A lot of stories are still out there, and people just read something and they believe it forever. So, this cryptocurrency is down 90% since January 2018, right? And it’s one of the main players. And it’s gotten killed and pretty much, January, February, March, April, May, through 2018 not 2019, negative stories come out, people are pissed off, this isn’t going to work. And that’s why the stock got hit. But today, people still deciding those things, even though this company is addressing them and they’re still an industry leader. It’s still the major platform that people use.

I’m being vague here, I don’t want to give away too much because people pay a lot of money for that newsletter. Crypto-Intelligence. Now, when I look at a situation like that and look at investors, I always want to gauge sentiment when it comes to stock, especially individual names. And it’s easy to identify a hated company. Tez is hated right now, PG&E, GE came out with good earnings, but they’re hated. Wells Fargo, American Airlines, even IBM is still a hated company. Now, it doesn’t mean you should run out and buy these things right away, but every one of these names is worth looking at. And it’s important not to dismiss it, because you’re reading headlines on the reason why people hate Wells-Fargo or GE when they were talking about the same risks for a long time.

And granted, GE, I thought, was mis-priced and I was wrong on this, but apparently, they hid some huge losses in the insurance business, which we didn’t really know about. [inaudible 00:49:45] was much worse than they let on, which they didn’t disclose. That happens. That’s why we use stops, limited damage when you’re wrong.

But let’s look at IBM as another example. I mean, they were getting their lunch eaten by everybody. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, again, all this stuff was well-known. They saw revenue for clients for 22 straight quarters. It’s talked about on CNBC all the time. Their server business, their core business, was barely growing, super-low margin that part of the business, and then Buffett came and bought the stock above 200, sold out at a loss, I think it was two, maybe three years later. Which is crazy, because Buffett’s typical hold on [inaudible 00:50:17] is like 50 years.

Now, when you take a closer look at IBM, at least I did, all these risks were already priced into the stock. I mean, it’s trading a single-digit, everyone was talking about these risks already. And more important, IBM understood these risks. They knew that this server business sucked and they needed to have more leverage in some of the biggest growth trends like AI, DNA analytics, block chain. They also saw IBM was paying a massive dividend, which I get paid to weigh and it was close to 5%, and the dividend was safe based on cashflow and earnings. I said, despite sales were slowing, it wasn’t a big deal because margin and earnings were growing, which basically meant IBM was getting out of low-margin, high-cost businesses and transitioning into more service businesses, which carry super-high margins.

Now, why is this important? Because if you dig through most of the hated stocks, they usually have one thing in common. They’re all trading at 52-week lows. Every single company, even the ones I mentioned, trading close to their 52-week lows. And every company has hit a 52-week low, at least one time, lots of times probably, unless you just recently IPO’d. And if you think about that way, do you want to buy Amazon today at 2000 or Apple at 200, right? Pretty close to their all-time highs. You know what? I think you’d probably do pretty well on both these investments over the next five years, buying back stock and Apple pays a nice dividend. But they’re not going to make you rich. They’re not going to generate the massive returns that you want to see because you’re buying them at these super-high levels.

But IBM could. I mean, Smart Cab is one-eighth the size of Amazon and Microsoft, they’re going to be one of the biggest players, if not the biggest player, in a trillion dollar industry which is hybrid cloud. GE could if you could find evidence that most of the risk is priced in, they just came out with a good quarter. Is it a one-off? Let’s see if they finally hit bottom. Look at a chart for the PG&E guys. They fell to $7 share in January after the utility company was severely impacted by those crazy wildfires that took place in California which they were being held responsible for. The stock got crushed, it fell to single digits at seven dollars. I mean, it was amazing. It was at 80, 90%, and nobody would touch that stock in a million years, but they got cleared of any wrongdoing, they said they were going to file for bankruptcy, I don’t think they’re going to now, I’m not too sure. But the stock is trading at $23 right now. That’s over 225 cent gains in just four months.

Of course, that’s if you catch the absolute bottom, but you see where I’m going with this. Because the biggest gains for you, as an investor, are going to come from buying super-depressed stocks. Because they’re trading at crazy-low valuations. I know it sounds like a dangerous game since many of these [inaudible 00:52:52], technicals are going to be horrible. However, the one way to find a needle in a haystack, or find the best hay, is to look at sentiment. Find out why the stock is down so much. And is it because it’s a risk that everyone knows about, including the company, because they’re going to address them. And can the company change its business model, adapt to new conditions or basically fix its problems, because for PG&E, the answer was yes. For IBM, the answer was yes when the stock traded at 115.

The answer was yes for a company called AeroVironment, which we nailed in Curzio Research, because it came down a ton. Bought it very cheap, I think around 40 below that I think. And it went to 120, you know, we did make profits on it, it’s trading at 70 now, we’re still doing very well on it. But most of the risks that were being talked about in that stock, it was reflected in the stock prices. It was pushed down. But people keep talking about the same risks. Just like you hear at IBM. They talk about the same risks, the same risks. So we add it to the portfolio, we know a lot of it was factored in and it turned out to be a big winner. Which, you know, I love to see my subscribers make money.

So the moral of the story here is, if you see a hated stock, and it’s trading at a 52-week low, don’t be so quick to dismiss it, even if you’re a technical analyst, and just move on. Do your research. Ask yourself, “Why is it trading at 52-week lows? Are those factors already priced into the stock?” Because if so, and if management’s able to turn around operations, you could see massive gains. I’m not talking about stock coming back and going up 30 or 40%, easily 100% and even 200%-plus returns are possible because these things are trading at such depressed valuations, and just any good news in this thing’s taking off, and this usually happens in a very short time frame like we saw at PG&E and also AeroVironment. PG&E is up what? From seven to 25 in four months’ time.

People are starting to pay attention now, but they wouldn’t even touch it at seven. It’s just something to think about. It’s how I’ve made my living, finding some great winners by buying hated stocks at their lows. I don’t do it all the time, it requires a lot of research, but just don’t be so quick to dismiss it because it’s trading at a 52-week low. Don’t wait for that thing to go up 30, 40% from its lows and then break technical levels. Because the big difference between buying the stock at seven like PG&E and getting those gains of $23 compared to buying it at 10, 11, 12, and just getting 100% returns because it waited for technical levels to get up.

Right? It’s the difference between 3, 400% gains compared to … It’s almost like double a little more and double the gains. Think you get the point, guys. Do your research, don’t always listen to the media, and see if a lot of those risks are priced into stock that everybody’s mentioning, and if they are, there’s a good shot that you’re going to see that company turn around, because the company’s going to address those risks and you can make a lot of money in an area that few people, at least a lot of people anyway, are very scared to venture in.

Okay, guys. That’s it for me. Before I go, I just want to ask you one quick favor. If you get a few minutes, only if you have free time, go to our iTunes page, Wall Street Unplugged, rate our podcasts, I don’t care how many stars you give us or the comments, you’re free to say whatever you want. But rating the podcast helps us improve the ratings, and as we go up, there’s more attention to the podcast. Not that I want more attention and I need a pat on the back, but when we do that, it helps us get great guests on this podcast because over the past few months, I’ve seen so many PR representatives reach out to us and say, “Hey, could you have this guy on and this guy,” and very popular people are starting to show up on a lot of these as the podcast grows. And the way they do that on iTunes is if you rate the podcast. That’s why every app you use comes up with a flash and says rate it and stuff like that.

But only if you have time. Rate our podcast, I’d really appreciate it. You can go to iTunes and I don’t care how many stars you give it or the comments, I really appreciate if you could do that. If not, it’s perfectly fine. So guys, thanks so much for listening, love you guys, I’ll see you in seven days. Take care.

Announcer: The information presented on Wall Street Unplugged is the opinion of its host and guests. You should not base your investment decision solely on this broadcast. Remember, it’s your money and your responsibility. Wall Street Unplugged, produced by the Choose Yourself Podcast Network, the leader in podcasts produced to help you choose yourself.