Announcer: Wall Street Unplugged looks beyond the regular headlines heard on mainstream financial media to bring you unscripted interviews and breaking commentary direct from Wall Street, right to you on Main Street.

Frank Curzio: How’s it going out there? It’s May 19th. I’m Frank Curzio, host of the Wall Street Unplugged podcast, where I break down headlines and tell you what’s really moving these markets. Yesterday was my birthday. I usually don’t tell anyone when my birthday is, but everyone’s telling me what my birthday is, everybody knew this year. So weird. I had so many friends call that I haven’t spoken to in a long time. It was really cool. My wife planned a big thing. It was almost like my 50th. I’m not 50 yet. I’m 49, but I had a lot of fun and people calling in saying hello. Any of you want to send me anything, cash? I only accept things over a $100,000. I got a Cayman Islands account that you could send it to. Let me know. I’ll give you that address and account number. Please don’t send me anything. I’m kidding for you people out there. I’m kidding.

Frank Curzio: But it’s nice. I’m 49 years old. It was cool. I went golfing the afternoon, got out with Daniel and he drove, which meant I could drink, so I had some fun. So, not too much of a script today. A little bit. I used to have a nice script, all written. I know the market’s coming down, but I want to talk about something else first. I did manage to go away this weekend, just with my wife. And past couple of trips, I went away it was with my daughter’s competitions and going away with the kids. This is the first trip I took just my wife and I in two years in COVID.

Frank Curzio: So, we went to the Hard Rock casino in Tampa, which is about three and a half hour drive from our house. It’s not that far for us anyway. I like to drive. But it was interesting when we got there, because this is an Indian casino. They kind of have their own laws, and they were last to really close their casino and close all operations during COVID. They did it in late March. Everyone did at least two weeks before. I know, because we had a plan to go there, my wife and I. We were like, hey, we’re just going to go there. It’s going to be cool. And they started closing all the casinos, and they were open to the point where we had a babysitter we were in the driveway. I said, let me just check one more time. Leaving to travel with our bags packed. Babysitter there for three days. We were going to go down to the Hard Rock in Hollywood, Fort Lauderdale, a little bit further drive. We’re going to go there.

Frank Curzio: So, let me look one more time and bam, there was, “We’re closed.” And we were like, oh man, we got to get away at least for a day. We got a babysitter, but they have their own rules, so I was surprised when I got there, their rules wear masks. Holy cow. I felt like it’s New York City six months ago. You had to wear it over your nose and they busted you. You know what? If you didn’t, I mean, as soon as you walk in there, someone’s handing you a mask. You can’t get in there without wearing a mask no matter what.

Frank Curzio: I think it was Friday. CDC came out and said, hey, you know what? If you’re vaccinated, which we still don’t know how to know if anyone’s vaccinated. That’s why you know the vaccine passport is definitely coming, but you don’t have to wear masks indoors anymore. They didn’t even care. I was surprised.

Frank Curzio: So, you had to cover everything. Unless of course, the exception of rule is if you were smoking or drinking, which my wife and I were doing most of the time we were in the casino, then you’re okay. It doesn’t have to make sense. It doesn’t. But I had at least four employees and dealers tell me I had to put the mask over my nose and that’s hard to do because I have glasses and yes, you could pinch the whatever. I mean, people wear glasses know how to do, but it’s a pain in the ass, right? Plus, just the logic of you have this big covering in front of you and for mucus to come out of my nose, shoot ricochet off the bottom, where you hand me the cards go right up into your mouth and you get COVID, assuming that I have COVID now, even though I had it already. I mean, the odds of that are probably the same as if you get into a plane crash and you live and an alligator comes and kills you. That’s probably the same odds there, I would guess.

Frank Curzio: But they’re like, hey, put that over your nose. It’s hard because your glasses fog up. And I had to read the cards. I’m like, man. So, I kept pulling it below my nose and three, four times they told me. So, to solve this massive problem, I just ordered a drink, a little cigar. Solved. I don’t have to wear a mask. Got to pull it down. That’s the solution. That’s what they allow. That’s what they allow. Got to wear a mask, you’re going to kill everybody. But if you smoke and drink, you’re fine. You’re good.

Frank Curzio: When it comes to Indian casinos, they do. They have their own rules. So, you figure it’d be relaxed a little bit, but it wasn’t. It was pretty nuts there. I was surprised. Anyway, the casino was jam packed. I’d love to hear from you guys, frank@curzioresearch.com. let me know if you’re going on vacation. You succeeded. They removing masks. No more mandatory masks to get that. That vaccine pass was definitely coming. If they really make it a point to say if you’re vaccinated. So, how do you know if you’re vaccinated? And why do I think the passport is coming? New York, just signed into law, that anyone going back to colleges, so you stay colleges, then you have to be vaccinated.

Frank Curzio: We’ve seen businesses as well require that, which is insane. Some people who had it may not want to get it, but it should be their choice, but to not have it and lose your freedom, lose your rights is a little crazy. It really is. After all, you got the vaccine. Again, I’m for it or against it. I told my mom she has to get it. I was going to get it. I was never afraid to get COVID when I got it. But right now I’m probably going to get the vaccine. I just wanted to wait a little while because I had it already. There’s no studies out showing that if you have those antibodies, is it dangerous to put 10X antibodies in your body? Do you really need to do that? Why even take that 0.01% chance if you don’t have to? But anyway, it’s just crazy telling people that they have to do something, especially if you have the vaccine, which means you can’t get it. You’re not going to give it to anybody. So, what do you care? Anyway. Okay. There’s no logic behind it, right? That’s why everything’s changing.

Frank Curzio: Look at casinos, jammed. They were making so much money. Holy cow. I mean, even food, you got a slice of pizza, it was $5. Soda was $3.50. I’m not talking… It’s like less than a can of soda. So, it’s a medium drink. The slot machines were packed. That’s where they rake in the most money. And they would take it in quick. My wife loves to play slots, and I play with it, which is pretty cool because we could sit next to each other, smoke and drink and stuff like that. I mean, we would put in like a $100 bill and play, maybe a $1, $1.50 a spin and thinking, hey, we’ll just hang out and whatever. We were expected to lose, but let’s just have some fun and maybe we’ll get lucky.

Frank Curzio: I mean, they took it in five minutes, 10 minutes. They would take it to like crap. It wasn’t even like, why don’t we just… They were just taking it. Just walking around the casino for two to three days, there wasn’t a lot of jackpots being hit or anything. They were raking in so much money. It’s insane. We did hit it a few times, end up losing a little money, which again was expected. But for me, when I go to a casino, I always look at the risk-reward on everything. My wife hates that about me. I research everything to death, right? It’s in your blood.

Frank Curzio: Started in stocks, if it’s investments, horses, you’ve seen me analyze Kentucky Derby, slot machines, getting married, everything, risk-reward, everything’s risk-reward, right? You got to look at it that way. At least, that’s what I think. That’s how I’m built.

Frank Curzio: But for slots playing a dollar a spin to win a small payout, which was the case at a lot of these slot machines is a losing strategy. I mean, I’d rather play $5 slots. So, if you hit, you hit big or roulette if you hit, you hit big. Yeah, the odds aren’t in your favor but if you put whatever, $5, $10 a dollar on a number, you’re going to hit. It’s going to a pretty nice amount. Even though it should be 36 to one and at this casino, I think it’s 32 to one, which is when did that happen? It’s already, the odds are not your favorite all, but now it’s even worse. So yeah, they get you. They really do. They get you.

Frank Curzio: Anyway, we did play a couple of files, slots. Got a little aggressive, and we hit a couple of times, which helped out a lot. But anyone playing those slots is a casino’s dream. It’s where they make the most money. I like to play with my wife, because we hang out, we sit together. I smoke cigars. She smoked cigarettes. She doesn’t smoke often. Only when we go out, very rare and have beers and just have some fun. But they did. They would take it up pretty quick. Everybody’s spending money. For me, I’d rather sit at a Cartel play, Texas Hold’em. That’s really good. I don’t really play too much anymore. It’s just a game that requires you to sit for hours. I can’t go with my wife and be like, “Hey, I’ll be gone like an hour and a half.” No. Texas Hold’em is different. Especially if you playing in large amounts. You have to sit there for a long time. You have to study players. You have to be patient until that perfect hand. That perfect setup comes in and it’ll happen. It’s happened to me. You just got to be patient.

Frank Curzio: Don’t take crazy chances where you’re going to get crushed. I mean, sometimes you can’t avoid if some guy just goes in crazy odds and something. But for me, it’s looking to flip a small straight and the flop after limping in with a big blind and some guy is sitting there with a pair of Kings and just keep betting over the toppy, the old toppy, right? He soft plays it and then an ace doesn’t come out. So, he thinks he has a winning hand and you’re sitting there with the nuts, and he’s just… He’s betting into you. That’s how you really win a lot of money. By going in winning those hands.

Frank Curzio: I mean the biggest losses I’ve taken in Texas Hold’em when you have pair of ace and pair of Kings. That’s when you lose the most money. So, having that hand is not the greatest thing ever, sometimes it is. But a lot of times you’re going to get crushed. You don’t get crushed having five, six off suit or whatever. You get crushed when you have a pair of kings or aces and somebody beat you. That’s when you get crushed in Texas Hold’em.

Frank Curzio: But anyway, I mean, I used to play a lot. I used to be a really good player, won several tournaments finished in a lot of top ten’s. But to me Texas Hold’em is like an old day thing. Most of the time that I do visit casinos, not often, but when I do, I go with my wife and we hang out together. So, otherwise I’d like to get into it a little bit more. But overall looking at the casino guys, it was packed. Everyone was spending money.

Frank Curzio: Probably the weirdest thing I saw, the weirdest thing I saw outside of the crazy mask mandates is there was tons of scooters. I mean the ones that older people ride indoors, but these scooters, they will go on 10 miles an hour indoors. Hey people were flying around the casino floors. And they were like they weren’t polite of, “Excuse me. Excuse me!” And you’re like, Whoa. I mean, these things are fast. If you didn’t get out of the way, it’s not just going to hit you, you’re going to go out. It’s going to almost like run you off. I’m not even kidding. But there were everywhere. I didn’t even know they had that many. Let me just 30 of them, at least.

Frank Curzio: It’s funny because yeah, these people are like, “Excuse me,” and they’re flying to the bathroom and then they get off and they almost, they run into the bathroom to pee. They run, they don’t even limp and fake it. I’m not saying that there’s people there that don’t need that, but I can tell you, even the people who do need it will tell you that most people don’t need it. They just have these things driving around, which is cool. But man, when did they go that fast? I’m probably going to get one next time. To qualify… I don’t think there are lots of ask you. What’s wrong with you? I think you can just, yeah.

Frank Curzio: It’s like getting on an airplane. If you say you have back problems, you have stuff, they can’t ask you why or whatever. They just say, okay, they’ll give you priority boarding, not seating, but boarding on an airplane. I shouldn’t say that because now everyone listening to this is going to do that. But they do. I know that because I had my back surgery and it was pretty bad. I had to fly about a couple months after and you don’t have to get up a little bit and they were really cool with it. So, I didn’t know that they didn’t need to see the surgery marks or anything. You don’t have to do anything. Anyway, these guys just run into the bathroom and get it up. They got it made. It’s awesome. Little weird.

Frank Curzio: Also weird is the thought of going to Indian casino. There’s a lot of these things. They generate so much money. But think about the concept of that. Imagine you just discovered a new frontier. It’s yours, your family lives on it. You teach them how to hunt, you teach amount, how to fish. It’s the greatest thing ever. Generations and generations. Thousands of years, you’ve owned this land. And then bam, a few boats pull in, a couple of guys get off and say, Hey, this is my land, pal. It’s time to get off, go take a hike. That’s really what happened, right? 1600s, 1700s, 1800s.

Frank Curzio: You look at the history of Indians in North America, it’s not pretty. Even at 1830, they actually signed an act called the Indian Removal Act. Imagine that. They actually had an act. 1830, that’s when they signed. The U.S. government. They basically relocated Indians from their land east of the Mississippi River. This also include a few years later from this law, the government forcibly removed 15,000 Cherokee from their homeland and said, hey, you got to go someplace else. And that place was 1200 miles west where 3000 of them died hiking that journey. That’s pretty crazy when you think about it.

Frank Curzio: So, now you have these Indian casinos. Thinking if that happened to you. Your family got kicked off your land. I mean some of the murders. It’s so crazy, and you can go back and read some of the stories. I mean, it’s fascinating. It really is. I mean, some of the shit that we did back in the day, crazy. But what would you do? What would you be telling generation after generation for the next 10 generations? I mean, you got to make sure these people, hey, you got to pay for what you did. I mean, look how much the land is worth now in the United States that they all own in North America and a lot of places.

Frank Curzio: The best way to do it is not war. You’re not going to win a war. You end up losing a lot of people. Best way is, hey, let’s take everything from these people and let’s take it from them legally without them even knowing. That’s why they don’t share the odds in a casino. Now, I’m the idiot because I go there. But those are the ones that are closest to me without having to fly to Las Vegas. So, it is what it is, but they don’t publish their results. They don’t need to have their win percentage. You can’t find that out. There’s people that try to find out by playing a lot of slots, but they don’t need to publish any of that stuff, where there’s certain laws in Vegas, where there has to be a certain amount of payout on slot machines or whatever. Here, there doesn’t have to be any payoff they don’t want. Of course there is.

Frank Curzio: I don’t know. It’s a little crazier. Anyway, told you there was no script. I know you guys listen to this saying, Frank the market’s crashing. What do we need to do? Bitcoin is crashing. Bitcoin right now is down 17%. Getting crushed along with technology continues to get crushed. Corrections, never a bad thing if you’re prepared, if you have cash on the sideline. Talk about this with inflation and things like that, and coming into the market and being careful. I’m going to break down the markets, what you need to do, how to play it because there are sectors that are doing well, like gold. Told you. Gold’s going to be a huge beneficiary of this and underperformed money has to flow someplace, gold four month high.

Frank Curzio: I know you know that because every gold bowl, like the ones that have been around since the ’60s are letting you know on every single platform that Gold’s at a four month high and that you’re an idiot for buying Bitcoin, which is great. Even though it’s significantly still outperforming gold over the past 10, 20, 30 years. That’s fine. You can’t go back 30 years but 2011 on, or you could say 2008, but really 2011 for Bitcoin. But they all come out, “I told you, I told you so, I told you so!” Which you kind of hate, but it’s good. You can own both and gold has gone higher. I’m going to break that down. Also, 13 apps came out that shows all the buys and sells, the holdings from all hedge funds, institutional money, and a lot of surprises.

Frank Curzio: I cover this a lot. It’s important. Remember this happens last quarter. A lot of these, they could change their allocations. That’s why you don’t want to look at the Renaissance two sigmas. I mean, they probably have a totally different portfolio because they’re not even looking at it. They just front run anything and trade and back and forth. And then they’ll say, here’s our stocks that we bought and sold. So, it’s not like they’re taking big positions like a Warren Buffet, Elliott. I mean this third point, David Einhorn with Greenlight, but there’s some significant things going on with their buying and what they’re selling is going to surprise you. I’m going to break that down.

Frank Curzio: Also, break down the huge sell-off in Bitcoin included in Elon Musk’s back and forth whether he likes it. He doesn’t like it. I love the attention he’s getting. Also, we saw China, the reason why it’s really coming down, their move to limit institutional ownership in crypto, which is not a surprise. They’re starting their own cryptocurrency, digital currency. Wouldn’t they want to make sure everyone buys that? But yet that was enough to push it down. So, a lot of leverage in Bitcoin. Also, big deal from AT&T which originally stock went up and then came down is a portfolio holding, which we’re about even on, but got tons of emails on it. But I got to cover why this deal is actually amazing. What AT&T is doing here. Why it’s fantastic, and why it’s one of the best stocks you could own in a growth and income portfolio, especially if you have an outlook that’s lower than two years. Now, that’s not going to go up before that, but that’s where you’re really going to see the benefits. I’ll break it down later on with Daniel.

Frank Curzio: But first I have an incredible interview for you today. First-time guest, and man, this is timely. It has to do a Bitcoin. This interview is being sponsored by blockchain.com, the most trusted cryptocurrency platforms in the world over 70 million wallets, over 800 billion transactions since 2011. So, not only can you share your favorite cryptos on blockchain.com, but you can earn up to 13% interest annually on your crypto, even during crazy times like these.

Frank Curzio: So, for more information, start your account, visit blockchain.com. That’s blockchain.com. They’re our sponsor, our only sponsor. Just started having a sponsor a couple of weeks ago and proud to have these guys because this is something that I use personally, and I’m never going to endorse anything or put something in front you just for money. I’m going to make sure these are things that I use because it’s very easy. I can’t endorse anything I don’t love and I don’t use myself. I would never do that. Again, this is Wall Street Unplugged. This is my podcast. So, it’s a reflection of me. So, I’m always going to put great guests, great sponsors in front of you and speaking of that great guest, it’s Bobby Lee.

Frank Curzio: Not the comedian who I actually like a lot by the way. This Bobby’s worth a little bit more than that Bobby. Bobby Lee was one of the earliest adopters of Bitcoin. His brother is Charlie Lee, who founded Litecoin. Bobby Lee founded the first ever, and the largest cryptocurrency exchange in China. So, Bobby’s one of the most respected names in Bitcoin. He has been there from the beginning. He’s not a crazy Bitcoin bull, you got to bite no matter what. It’s crazy. He actually makes the case for Bitcoin to go incredibly higher from here, but also talks about how much lower it can go first and both the high-end, his high-end forecast and the low end, which the correction.

Frank Curzio: I mean, these levels that they throw down. During the interview, they actually call him out on it, it’s going to surprise the hell out of you because it’s not like, well, we can see a 20% pullback. No, no, no. Wait till you hear these levels. It’s pretty crazy. I’ve never seen anyone tell me that a stock could do this, like that kind of range. It’s pretty cool. Trust me. But he makes a great case.

Frank Curzio: Also, he just came out with a new book yesterday. So, this is one of the first podcasts he came on. It’s called the Promise of Bitcoin. And when I say he’s one of the biggest names in the space, and we talk about this in the interview, I don’t want to give too much away, but just listen to the people who have endorsed his book, and it’s every big name. We’re going to go over all of that. You know what? Let’s get to that interview right now.

Frank Curzio: Bobby Lee, thanks so much for coming on Wall Street Unplugged.

Bobby Lee: Yes, Frank. Thank you for having me. Excited to be on your show.

Frank Curzio: Well, let’s bring everyone in here, right? A little bit of a history of yourself where you receive your bachelor’s master’s degree out of Stanford around 1998. Perfect timing for the internet boom. You worked at Yahoo for eight years. I believe it was Walmart, China as well, and became vice-president of technology. How did all this, being an engineer and working at this firm, how did that lead to you becoming a pioneer in Bitcoin?

Bobby Lee: Well, it happened 10 years ago. So, this spring is my ten-year anniversary for being involved with Bitcoin. For the first two years, it was as a hobbyist, as an amateur. I started mining it. I found out about Bitcoin through my brother, Charlie Lee who’s famous in his own right, I guess. And so, yeah everyone knows him. He’s a creator of Litecoin, of course. So, he learned about Bitcoin, I believe through some online forums in early 2011, and he told me about it.

Bobby Lee: He and I we were very close brothers, two years apart, and we had always been investors in gold and always thought about, prior to Bitcoin we’ve had these deep conversations about what makes gold valuable. I think those conversations really made us understand that Bitcoin can be valuable because of its sort of features and functionality. And of course we both have computer science background. So, the notion of a decentralized peer-to-peer network and all of that stuff, even though it was new at the time, it was something that we could sort of wrap our minds around it.

Bobby Lee: So, we got involved in 2011. He started mining. I followed him and started mining some Bitcoin. And then for the first two years, it was just as a hobbyist mining Bitcoin. And then I got really into it professionally in early 2013. That’s when I dedicated my job, career wise into Bitcoin and for most, most people, that was unheard of in early 2013 to jump into Bitcoin straight in. Yeah that’s the start. Yeah.

Frank Curzio: No, no, that’s great. So, you mentioned something interesting there where you were a big believer in gold, and I know we’ll talk about your book in a little bit, but you talk about the history of gold and how it came up to this gold standard. How it came up with the gold standard in the U.S. When you look at Bitcoin and gold, I feel like they’re enemies among the people where you can’t own both. Yet, it seems like they both provide services that whether it’s a store value, whether it’s an alternative currency, not that gold is an alternate currency and Bitcoin has probably more uses, but what’s the big difference between these two and are you invested in gold anymore? Or you see it, hey, it’s Bitcoin is much, much better than gold?

Bobby Lee: So, certainly my Bitcoin investments have appreciated a lot more than my gold, but I still am an investor in gold. In fact, I buy more gold every year. So, I’m accumulating gold on the side as well. To me, aside from gold being shiny and pretty precious metal, very dense and heavy. We all know that. But the most important thing about Bitcoin and gold, the similarity is that both of them are what we call bearer assets. It’s a notion of a financial asset where the person owning it, who has direct control is the owner. So, it’s not in contrary, it’s not a titled asset.

Bobby Lee: So, for most people, the financial institutions, the assets we own most of your titled assets, think about the money in your bank account. Your money in a bank account is titled to your name. Meaning the bank account is written is opened in your name as shown on your ID, driver’s license, passport and same with stocks and bonds. If you have a brokerage account, that’s a titled asset. Same with real estate. If you own houses, if you own a house, own a home, it’s titled asset tied to your name. Same things with large purchases, such as cars, some people might have their own boats or airplanes. Those are all titled assets. What’s unique about gold and also with Bitcoin is it’s not a titled asset, rather it’s a bearer asset, meaning that you can own it by holding it and there’s no third party in control of that asset telling you what you can and cannot do with it. So, that’s a huge distinguishing point.

Bobby Lee: So, prior to Bitcoin, Bitcoin is the first bearer asset available in digital form. Whereas in the physical world, gold is the go to bearer asset in the physical world. So, with the advent of the internet, how we’re in the digital society now. It was important for humanity to invent and create a new bearer asset suitable for internet commerce. Bitcoin was that invention. It took decades and decades of research and finally, 2008 Satoshi Nakamoto proposed a white paper, even then very few people gave it credit. People just wrote it off. It was ignored pretty much. And then 2009, when he launched the network in January, that’s when Bitcoin was born. And again, as history shows for the first few months, very few people paid attention to it. The breakthrough is that it’s a digital bearer asset first of its kind.

Frank Curzio: So, speaking of paying attention to it, we’ve seen over the past, say six months, nine months, maybe it’s a year where we’ve seen a micro strategy come in and use a cash balance to buy Bitcoin. We’ll get to Elon Musk in a second because none of the back and forth. It’s entertaining, and I know the guy loves the attention, but we’ve seen companies actually start using their cash balance for this. And we see how volatile it is just this week, right? I mean, it was 60 it’s 45, 50 back and forth. Do you see more adoption that way from institutions? Or do you see it more as a lot of companies are creating stable coins. It’s an easy way to transfer money back and forth. I mean how do you see this playing out going forward?

Bobby Lee: So, I think it’s two different issues here. So, obviously stable coins have become very popular, started with tether, otherwise known as USDT, but it’s sort of an offshore unregulated stable coin. In the U.S. now, we have a very regulated stable coin called USDC. And of course, face for the project formerly known as Libra has relaunched as DM. So, it’s going to launch a stable coin as well. I think starting with the U.S. dollar version. The point I want to make is stable coins are by definition stable yet because they are stable and tied to an existing currency, they are by definition centralized. Either centralized, tied to an entity or centralized, tied to the government. So, governments can issue stable coins as well. Central banks can issue it, as well as private financial institutions can issue stable coins.

Bobby Lee: So, stable coins are a form of digital currency. However, they’re not the decentralized digital currency that Bitcoin is. So, in other words, I’ve been around this for 10 years now. My thinking on this continues to evolve, I continue to learn about and get a deeper knowledge of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. My current thinking is that stable coins are great for payments because they hold their value. When you think in terms of the traditional fee out money. If you’re thinking in dollar terms, stable coins by definition are very stable with value and not volatile.

Bobby Lee: On the other hand, Bitcoin cryptocurrency is what I consider as an investment. Society has shown it over the last 10 years, sadly, not a lot of places and merchants and places take Bitcoin as payment. Tesla toyed around with it recently.

Bobby Lee: We suddenly it revoked that. So, you can no longer buy a Tesla with Bitcoin, what a shame. But nonetheless, the way I see it is Bitcoin is more of an investment, you can invest in Bitcoin because it is grossly underappreciated right now. And then when you sell it, you have to pay capital gains, but hopefully at a much higher return. And with that money, you can go buy things with it. So, those are my views on that.

Frank Curzio: Well, talk about that. I mean, decentralized but… And you mentioned this in your book, how you’re not so worried about regulation down the line, but then we saw the current administration throw out a number that they might tax Bitcoin to infinity. Which would be huge, it’s probably not going to happen, but they just said it’s a possibility. So, what are some of the things that could derail this to the point where to me listening to you, it seems like you’re not worried about regulation, but there are a lot of people that are saying that really could calm this down or stop it from really scaling where… I mean, this still probably 99% of the people that you still don’t know how to access this. This market still in its infancy right now, how do we get to scale it if we have governments out there that are trying to hold that back right now?

Bobby Lee: Yeah. So, again, Bitcoin is really decentralized and there’s nothing they can do to stop it. So, I think the most important functionality is its unstoppable feature. It’s really alive and well. By the way, it’s been over 12 years. So, it feels like it’s been a long time, but I want to just bring everyone, just take a step back and think about. In human years, a 12-year-old child is not, is still in middle school, and not even a teenager yet. So, imagine what would happen when Bitcoin turns 18 years old, turns 21 years old. I think it has a lot of room to grow. Right now, in a mere 12 and a half years, 12 years, it’s reached $1 trillion in circulation value. I know that daily prices we can price has changed that quite a bit due to the fluctuation.

Bobby Lee: But in my opinion, 1 trillion is a drop in the bucket for a global reserve asset class, which I know pick point is and will become. So, I think if we went by the time Bitcoin turns 18, by the time the conference 21, give it another 7, 8, 9, 10 years. I think it easily reach at least 10 trillion, if not $100 trillion. And by the way, if the U.S. Federal Reserve continues to print money at the current rate, then inflation will come around the corner and the Bitcoin head much, much higher. So, the reason it’s volatile is because over the years, Bitcoin is climbing a such a steep hill because of human greed and fear. The price doesn’t go up from zero to a 100 trillion in the straight line, it would have to go up gradually and come fall back down for corrections.

Bobby Lee: So, that’s my explanation of why it’s so volatile. But every few years it goes up an order of magnitude. So, I urge people to not get frightened by the short-term volatility and really think about the long-term potential. In terms of regulation, it’s natural that governments for something they don’t have control over it, they want to control it. But the nature of Bitcoin is it’s a wild animal. It’s not to be domesticated. So, it’s going to be constantly at odds with what the regulators want. It’s a good thing. That way it’s really independent.

Frank Curzio: Yes. No, it makes sense. And other risks include what now we’re hearing. I mean, Elon Musk did a total about face on this and said, “I love Bitcoin buying it for Tesla.” And then he said, the electricity usage bad for the environment. Is this really a concern? I’ve visited mine facilities? The electricity use is pretty insane, but it is it to the point where this could derail that growth as well, because climate change in the U.S. and a lot of other places, it’s a religion. Whether you agree with it or not, you can’t provide facts. You can never change someone’s mind. They just believe it. And Elon came out and said, “We haven’t sold any more Bitcoin, or I just sold Bitcoin last quarter.” Which, conveniently, made the quarterly estimates due to that. And I’m a fan of Elon Musk, but is this really a concern that we could see out of institutions who already adopted it and maybe they follow his lead here?

Bobby Lee: Yeah, for sure. I think companies, more and more companies will adopt Bitcoin as a holding on their balance sheets. I think MicroStrategy was one of the first public companies to do so in the large scale and Tesla is a second and it’s doing even larger scale having purchased what was, I think, 1.5 billion worth of Bitcoin back in Q1. I think that amount has gone way over to $2 billion and think of… So today, we just have a few companies doing it, but I think I predict that in the few years, we’ll have many, many more companies, especially S&P 500 companies starting to embrace Bitcoin. So, when Bitcoin goes to 100, 200, $500,000, that’s when more companies will pile in. And by the way, I also have a prediction that in the next cycle, that’s when nation states will start tiptoeing into holding Bitcoin as part of the foreign currency reserves.

Bobby Lee: So, as you know, aside from the United States, almost every country out there practically has to hold foreign currency reserves most usually in U.S. Dollars or in euros. And they hold it in cash or in U.S. treasury bonds, stuff like that. So, I think that mix will tip into big point in the coming years and probably four or five years, and even major countries will do it probably in the longer timescale, probably five to 10-year timescale. So, I think there’s a trend to come just because, just like individuals started holding it like myself many years ago and then funds, family offices started holding it, institutions, endowments, university, college endowments started holding crypto, and now it’s companies. And then it’s just going to go off the pecking order. So, I think it’s very natural.

Frank Curzio: So, where do you see as someone who’s obviously attached to China, and people that don’t know, everyone who’s listening to you right now in Bitcoin knows who you are, but say for people who don’t, in 2017, I was just at subsidies earlier than that. You used to, I think it was 2011, you used to have the very first crypto exchange in China, BTC China. But in 2017-

Bobby Lee: Yes, that’s right.

Frank Curzio: The government was against it. Shut a lot of these things down. Why is China so against crypto? Do you see them adopting it? That’s a major theme because we’re looking at one of the most… I mean, you could always say it’s developed now, but the growth that you’re going to see out of China and being a world power, it would be nice if they relaxed their laws a little bit, but what’s going on actually in China, from someone who knows everything. I mean, are they adopting this? Are they nervous about it?

Bobby Lee: Let me give you an insight, I’m an American who has been living in China for the past 15 years. I travel back and forth, of course, I’m currently in Las Vegas in Nevada. So, the issue with China is that what people don’t realize and forget often is that China is actually a capital controlled society, meaning the foreign currencies are controlled, capital controls, meaning that people do not have the freedom to freely exchange from a foreign currency to the local currency, the Chinese Renmimbi, the grand currency. They don’t have that freedom to exchange back and forth. Even investors, businesses, companies don’t either. So, you have to… They have quotas, you have to apply for it. For most people, it’s a $50,000 limit, meaning that it’s measured in U.S. Dollar terms, meaning that foreigners can exchange up to $50,000 with a foreign currencies to do local Chinese Renmimbi on a yearly basis and vice versa from local Chinese people who want to travel out to exchange to foreign currencies for tourists spending money and stuff like that.

Bobby Lee: It’s been the limit that’s in place for as long as I remember. And in that way, that’s the ultimate friction point with Bitcoin because Bitcoin is so free. Bitcoin, essentially, even though it’s not a government issued currency, Bitcoin is essentially a free flowing digital currency where the value is really market forces. It’s really free floating. It’s in my view, Bitcoin is the freest of all currencies. So, in that sense, we started the exchange BTC China in 2011. We ran it for a good six and a half years before having to shut it down in China.

Bobby Lee: But it was a loophole, right with Bitcoin local people can buy Bitcoin and exchange out of the currency. However, and by the way, the local currency doesn’t leave the country. It’s not like you’re exporting it. It’s just that you’re a matchmaker. You allow the local currency to go out with someone importing foreign currencies into China at the same time. That’s what Bitcoin essentially allows for. So, with a capital control society, you can’t have a Bitcoin exchanges operating without regulation. So, because at the time, in 2017, the government and the regulators didn’t feel like it was the right time to regulate Bitcoin exchanges, so that’s why they had to shut it down. Otherwise, this would go out of control. So, I think those are the sort of main points there.

Frank Curzio: No, it makes sense. So, I want to turn a page here, because you just came out with a brand new book, which was released yesterday, “The Promise of Bitcoin: The Future of Money and How It Could Work For You.” I feel like this book is… Who it got endorsed by is amazing. We’ll talk about it in a little bit, but almost every big name in Bitcoin has been involved in Bitcoin and crypto, but what was the reason why? What are you trying to explain in this book? What’s the purpose of it and why now? So, you’ve been in this industry for so long, and you’ve seen the adoption, what’s your motivation for writing this? And what’s the message that you’re trying to convey here to anybody that reads it. Because I know that you’re excited about this, but just the timing I figured it would come out a couple of years ago. It seems like there’s much more to be told right now.

Bobby Lee: Yeah. I started this three years ago. I started this project three years ago after I sold my company, BTCC, in early 2018. I thought I could write a book at the time I was giving a lot of speeches, traveling the world, going to conferences. The motivation is I really want to tell the story of Bitcoin, tell it to ordinary people, tell it to regular people, Americans, people around the world, Europe, Africa. And the reason is, I want to tell it in a way that’s not all technology focused, but tell in the way that’s fundamental, why Bitcoin is something amazing. An amazing human invention. It’s an investment of a lifetime. I’ve certainly benefited a lot financially from investing in Bitcoin. And I want to share that perspective to the rest of the world. And that’s a motivation. So, it’s really written for the common person.

Bobby Lee: It’s not written for the geek tech industry, not for the crypto industry. It’s really for the regular person who is What I call Bitcoin curious. People who have heard about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency from the media, but they don’t understand what it is. They don’t understand how it works. They don’t understand why it’s valuable. I think the single biggest question people have is how can something that’s not physical, something so digital, so virtual have real value. Is it a Ponzi scheme? Is it a pump and dump? My book goes into that. We also talk about the, what we call the regulation. Basically, I start by talking about the, what I call the three horsemen, the three core cornerstones of the industry. We have the exchanges, we have the Bitcoin mining itself, and also the wallets. And talk about the regulation state of the world and as also make some predictions. So, it’s really meant to educate the common person and teach them about what Bitcoin, the whole deal is about.

Frank Curzio: Some of those points too. I love the history part of getting into Bitcoin, which is a good explanation. You talk about why regulation can’t crush Bitcoin and also how you… If you continue to buy Bitcoin in U.S. Dollars, the price is going to continue to go higher. You just talk about like more of the economics behind it, but is that really what led you to get into this? Because it seems weird and coming from Silicon Valley, with technology, every place. So, I get the Bitcoin part, but to me, what’s impressive here is someone who looks at the economy, studies the economy for decades. You really dig into why this is important. And also it’s pretty impressive that you’re like, “Hey, I still own gold, it’s not as big as Bitcoin.” But it sounds like you’re a true believer that we’re going to see the destruction of all paper currencies. It’s just a matter of time. I don’t know if I’m putting words in your mouth or not.

Bobby Lee: I don’t make that. Well, that’s a controversial point. I can talk about the destruction of or the collapse of paper money, but let’s go back. So, I’m a big fan of Bitcoin. First of all, over the 10 years, I’m thankful to Bitcoin because Bitcoin is what got me to learn about economics. I’m not a trained economics person. I’m a trained computer science, computer scientists programmer, if you will. That’s my industry background. That’s what I learned and majored in college at Stanford. So, that’s what essentially allow me to step through the doors of Bitcoin 10 years ago, in 2011, by having that strong training in computer science, I didn’t feel overwhelmed to go in, to look at the white paper, to look at the code and to understand the software, run it, start mining, set up computers to do that.

Bobby Lee: So, that was my benefit insight. However, over the last 10 years, I can honestly say I learned more, much more about the economic principles behind it, the idea of libertarianism. So, I’m much more of a libertarian now than I ever was. I am a believer in personal liberty freedom. And also, the important thing is freedom of money. Money to me is the proof of one’s work. In other words, if you think about the money you have in your pocket, what does it represent? Well, it represents your savings. It’s your savings from your past work. Meaning that the money you have is a reputation that in the past you’ve worked hard. I don’t care for the summer job or during college, or if it’s just a first job out of college or whatnot, you decide to not to spend all of that money when you made it so that you save it for the later date, to pay for rent, to pay for food, to pay for vacation, to pay for college for your children or whatever.

Bobby Lee: So money, everyone, the money we have, essentially our choice to save it for the future. And Bitcoin is a perfect vehicle for that because it really captures a value due to its limitation of 21 million units. And with Fiat money, the big issue is if you think about the U.S. Dollar today, it’s actually has only been around… The country has been around for hundreds of years. The United States, that European countries, and so on many countries around the world who issue money have been run for hundreds of years. But the U.S. Dollar we have today is only 50 years old. This year, the U.S. Dollar will turn 50 years old this summer. What I mean by that is, that’s when president Richard Nixon took the U.S. Dollar off the gold standard in 1971, meaning prior to 1971, the U.S. Dollar was actually a different beast. It was actually a version of gold.

Bobby Lee: So, think about the U.S. Dollar bill, the $1 bill, and think about quarters, the coins. If you have four quarters, it’s equivalent to $1 bill. We think of it four quarters is $1, same as $1 bill. But the reality is those two mediums are different coins are metallic, paper notes are made of paper. But yet, they have the same value. So, what I’m trying to say is a U.S. Dollar actually had a tie in with gold. So, prior to 1971, the U.S. Dollar was backed by gold. Just like the U.S. Dollar was backed by quarters. So, in that sense, the dollar and the gold were fundamentally the same equivalency, you can change gold to U.S. Dollars and U.S. Dollars to gold at a fixed rate. What happened in 1971 is Richard Nixon took the U.S. Dollar off the gold standard. Gold shot up from $35 to an ounce all the up to 800.

Bobby Lee: Now it’s at, I think it’s at 1500 or $1,800 per ounce of gold. So, now the U.S. Dollar has lost 99% of its value in this last century. So, you understand what’s going on here because it’s unhinged. They can print as many dollars as they want. And by the way, that’s the growth factor for Bitcoin. If they can print as many dollars as they want, whereas Bitcoin is limited 21 million. I think anyone with some basic knowledge of math could do predict what’s going to happen in the future. That’s why I’m so bullish. As long as we continue to measure Bitcoin value, Bitcoin price in terms of a continued in fighting currency, like the U.S. Dollar, I think there’s no limit to how high Bitcoin prices could go. So, those are my thoughts.

Frank Curzio: Now, we’ll get to this focus in a second, but I just want to show guys here the bootcamp, I guess, May 18th. I’m not going to forget that day because I have to remember it.

Bobby Lee: Yeah. It’s the enemy.

Frank Curzio: I want to just talk about real quick about where the people that endorse this. I don’t know if it’s on this page, but you have Winklevoss twins.

Bobby Lee: Yes, obviously. Scroll down, you’ll see it.

Frank Curzio: Yes, so Winklevoss twins.

Bobby Lee: Winklevoss. Tyler, Cameron.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. And you have CZ CEO of Binance, Roger Veer Gavin Anderson who’s formally developer of Bitcoin.

Bobby Lee: Keep scrolling.

Frank Curzio: Keep going. Here it is. And here we go, there.

Bobby Lee: Those are the endorsements.

Frank Curzio: I mean, Michael Novogratz. All these people are very, very huge in the industry, which is incredible. So, I want to say congratulations on this. This is really great stuff. Now, let’s get to something that I wanted to talk about. What is your forecast? Because you’re very bullish on Bitcoin. However, your forecast may be the highest that I’ve seen. I want to see what the timeframe is because I’m sure I would guess I could be wrong on this and feel free to correct me that in 2011, you saw this as a big deal. Did you really believe that it would be a trillion dollar market? And I love the fact that you brought it up that, listen, this is 12 years. This is very, very quickly. Everything today is like one second and real time. But I mean, $1 trillion up, did you think it would happen that quick? And where do you see this going? Because I’ve heard some of your forecast say, and in what timeframe, you think you’re going to hit that?

Bobby Lee: Yeah. When I learned about Bitcoin 2011, I remember distinctly Charlie and I talking about it. Like how much could it be? I think it was at the time it was in the tens or maybe hundreds of million dollars. And we’re thinking with the catch, it can get to a $1 billion. The reason our predictions were so low at the time in hindsight, it was because we barely understood it. Remember, we were computer science geeks trying to learn about this economic revolution that we didn’t understand what was going on. Now, we started mining that we sort of understood the technology, but we didn’t understand the true economic implications of a global digital asset that was truly strictly limited yet couldn’t be stopped because of its decentralization. I can very honest to tell you, over the last 10 years, I’ve learned more and more about Bitcoin and the more I learn and by the way, I’m learning from it.

Bobby Lee: From the perspective as an industry executive, I ran one of the world’s largest exchanges, for over five years and really see firsthand in the nation, sorry, in the world’s largest country in China, how feverous, feverish, they were with Bitcoin and cryptocurrency, the trading and the usage of it. I’ve used Bitcoin myself from a spending and payments perspective. When I was giving speeches in 2018, many conferences were paying me in Bitcoin to attend and speak at their conferences. So, I see firsthand the challenges making international payments and U.S. dollars versus receiving Bitcoin payments. I really have a very… What I consider to be very full well-rounded perspective on Bitcoin and usefulness of it. So, in that sense, I’ve been more and more bullish, more and more sure of myself in terms of the future of Bitcoin. So, until the predictions, like I said, it reached $1 trillion recently, I think a month or two ago in value.

Bobby Lee: I know it’s fallen a bit in this month of May 2021, but I think this year I made this prediction in almost two years ago that in this bull market cycle of 2021, I called it in fact, in December 2018, and you can check my Twitter feed for that. I said that Bitcoin will cross over 10,000, we’ll start rallying and late 2020. And then the bull market could coffin to earnest in 2021. And by the end of this year, I know on my Twitter feed, I predict that Bitcoin can cross, can peek out at maybe 333,000. Now, that number is just a simple back of the envelope calculation based on how Bitcoin has appreciated in the past cycles. So, there’s not a lot of scientific rigor to that, but for me, even today, Bitcoin hovering at 40, $50,000.

Bobby Lee: It can easily get over 100,000 this summer. And I think it can very well touch 150 or 200,000, and I think there’s also a small or medium possibility that could hit $300,000. But the caveat is that because Bitcoin is very volatile next year, after the bull market, it could fall back at least 50%, 60, 70, and maybe 80 or 85%. So, that’s where it’s really rough every after every happy bull market cycle, Bitcoin inevitably goes through a multi-year bear cycle. And that’s what keeps the checks and balances that keeps it naysayers and keeps the bullish people, both parties are right at some point, but overall, I predict that for the next bull cycle in four or five years Bitcoin, we’ll cross out above 500,000, even $1 million. So, still very, very bullish about it.

Frank Curzio: So, $1 million is… I got to tell you though, when you’re telling me that, hey, we can see 78% correction, it’s not easy for people to go with. I mean, we’ve seen a little bit of a correction, but hey, you’re good in five years you could see a value decline 80%, but don’t worry about it, it’s not the end. I can picture a lot of people being nervous about that.

Bobby Lee: Yeah. Because you have to study the price history, I mean the correction can go 85%. I think it’s gone 85% below in almost every bull cycle. But the thing to remember is it’s a flash crash. It goes down there, it stays down there for hours or for days, or for a few weeks. So, it’s very hard to catch it, a falling knife and by the time… But by the way, most people when it crashes that low, no one’s interested in buying it. All the people who thought they want to wait for a lower price, they get scared and they don’t buy it. So, that’s why I tell people the best time… In my book, I make a clear point.

Bobby Lee: The best time to buy Bitcoin is right now, when you have the conviction, when you have the motivation to buy it. It doesn’t matter the price because the whole investment thesis for Bitcoin is that when you buy it, it’s going to go up 20 times, 100 times. You’re not buying it for 10, 20% return. So therefore, even if a price, corrects 10, 20, 30%, it doesn’t matter what you’re looking for as a 100 bagger, so to speak. So, for 100 baggers, buy it. When you have a conviction, don’t wait for it to drop because by the time it drops, you actually lose your conviction. You lose your curiosity and your intent to buy, and that’s the mistake most people make.

Frank Curzio: Okay. Now, a couple of other questions here before we go, cause I want to get your thoughts on it. We’re seeing a cryptocurrency called Dogecoin. Everybody knows about it now. I said it live, and I had never had so many people come up to me and ask me about it. They never knew anything about cryptocurrency. Should I buy Dogecoin before Elon Musk goes… I send out live. We know that this was started out as pretty much a joke and still has no utility functions. Does this piss you off a little bit where…

Frank Curzio: For me, crypto is a real industry. It’s going to continue to disrupt so many different industries across the board, especially investment banking. That’s why I based my company on is starting a security token and launching it. But when I see Dogecoin, it gets me a little upset where I’m like, I just feel like it’s cryptocurrency. It’s a religion. It’s for the people. And I understand that point and why the value is going up. Kind of like Tesla, we can’t really value it on a fundamental basis, but it also, to me, it takes away a little bit from what’s really going on in crypto and how many great things there are, because this is the one that everyone’s starting to focus on right now. Does that bother you at all? You think it’s a good thing there’s a Dogecoin out there.

Bobby Lee: Yeah. So these days, I’m at peace with myself about all the cryptocurrencies, all the Altcoins and all that are out there. In the early days, many, many years ago, when the Altcoins first came on the market, I was a little upset. How come we’re diverting attention from Bitcoin being the real cryptocurrency and getting all tainted with all the Altcoins and will people call shitcoins sometimes? So these days, I know I can’t stop it. The misinformation out there, and there’s always people are trying to make a quick buck by pumping their Altcoins or shitcoins. And is also people who are not necessarily evil that you somehow get shipped up with the mood, and they start advertising it just because they think they get all riled up for it. So those Dogecoins, the issue is that there’s no limit on supply.

Bobby Lee: So, it’s a continually inflating money. So, it’s a meme coin, obviously, as with anything in life, if this, people who believe there’s value and a disvalue in it. But fundamentally it’s not as… It’s like gold, silver, and copper, why is gold worth more than silver, worth more than copper it’s because gold fundamentally from chemical, from a chemistry perspective, it has better features and functionality than silver and copper. And I can go into all the issues with silver and copper that gold doesn’t have. So for that reason, Dogecoin will always… I don’t care how many people buy it, when the fundamentals come back, Dogecoin will always stand inferior to Bitcoin from a technology perspective. So, I think that’s why for the people who are hyping up and buying Dogecoin today, I think you have to be very, very careful in terms of making that financial decision. I still think Bitcoin may not be sexy, but Bitcoin is the investment that’s going to hold up its value. That’s going to be worth a lot in years to come.

Frank Curzio: No, it makes sense. And I’m going to ask you one more last question. So, you said earlier that two years apart from Charlie, and I know 2011, you said you follow Charlie when he started to mine Bitcoin, and he’s the founder of Litecoin. You’re also the founder of China’s first Bitcoin exchange. So, is there a competitiveness there? Because when my brother on three years apart, we were really competitive or is it a great relationship or is it always competitive? Because you guys are both doing very, very well. And I see where the industry is, and you guys got it early, which is really cool.

Bobby Lee: Yeah. We have a very good relationship. It’s not competitive in the sense. I mean, we’re siblings. I mean, he told me about, and he taught me about Bitcoin. So, we learned from each other and we support each other. He left Coinbase several years ago. He’s doing his own thing now.

Bobby Lee: He’s full-time on helping Litecoin succeed. And I’ve launched a new company called Ballet. We make hardware cold storage wallets. And we make these cold storage really safe wallets for everyday people. They’re, I think, the number one easiest to use wallets for everyday people. So, I’m very happy of that. I could have retired, but I thought of what else to do after I sold my company.

Bobby Lee: And I thought that this was one industry I really want to help, which is help normal people get into cryptocurrency by providing them a solution to store and hold their cryptocurrency investments in something that’s really easy to use. On the marketplace today, all the wallets are too hard to set up, too hard to use. A lot of them have security flaws and stuff like that. So, I think I’ve come up with a very unique solution. It’s called Ballet. Check it out.

Bobby Lee: You can buy them on Amazon. So Charlie and I, even though we don’t live in the same city, we keep in touch. And yeah, we’re just excited to be participating in the industry and also watching Bitcoin grow. Like I said, I can’t wait until Bitcoin turns 21.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. And do you have the Ballet card? You usually have that available?

Bobby Lee: Yeah. Yeah, I can step out of the frame and get one and show you. Hold on. Just give me a second.

Frank Curzio: It’s fine. All right, go ahead. Go. I love doing this. Go ahead.

Bobby Lee: Okay, fine. Yeah, it’s really awesome.

Frank Curzio: That’s why these video things are so much fun. Putting people on the spot in the middle of the interview. I love doing it.

Bobby Lee: So, this is an example. It’s basically a hardware wallet. It’s a physical wallet made of stainless steel, and it’s ready to go. It’s got a QR code on front. This is a Bitcoin deposit address. And the private keys are on the back of that. It’s actually a two factor private key made in two different countries. So, super secure. It’s like a two way multisig. And the most important feature is this actually stores multiple cryptocurrencies.

Bobby Lee: So, even though this is a Bitcoin mobile, the Bitcoin mobile just represents that this QR code is ready to go for Bitcoin, but you can also store Ethereum. You can store all the ERC-20 tokens. You can store a Dogecoin. You can store Litecoin. You can store all the top cryptocurrencies, I think close to or over 100 currencies. Recently, we launched NFT support. So, any ERC-721 NFTs, we can put on here such as CryptoKitties, and what is it?

Bobby Lee: CypherPunks? Yeah, something like that. So, a bunch of NFT stuff. I’m not really into it, but people love storing their NFTs and cryptocurrency on these wallets. And the IBS is a bearer asset. We’ve turned the digital bearer asset into a physical bearer asset. So, Bitcoin and cryptocurrency is digital bearer asset. Whoever has the private keys on the coins, it’s not a title of asset.

Bobby Lee: And similarly, this is a physical bearer asset. So, with a physical bearer asset, now you can put cryptocurrency on here and can give it as a gift. You can give it to your children for their birthday, for Hanukkah, for bat mitzvah. You can give it out for their day, Father’s Day. You can give it out as a Tooth Fairy present, Christmas, all sorts of functions.

Frank Curzio: You’ve got it all figured out.

Bobby Lee: Asia and China. Oh, yeah. In Asia and China, they’re very popular as red envelopes for New York gifts. In Chinese culture, people give out red envelopes. So, you can load them up with Bitcoin and then give them out to children. And then when they turn 18, when they turn 21, it’s going to be amazing amount of value there.

Frank Curzio: No, it’s great stuff. Well, Bobby, listen. I wish you success with your book, “The Promise of Bitcoin: The Future of Money and How It Can Work for You.” Very excited. So, I know you’re going to sell lots and lots of copies, even though my audience as well. And if someone wants to get in touch with you outside of that, how could they do that, learn more about you?

Bobby Lee: Yeah, yeah. The best way is follow me on Twitter. My handle name is Bobby C. Lee. So, @bobbyclee. I just have over 100,000 followers on Twitter, so please follow me on that. I have a Facebook account as well. And then, my website is bobbylee.com. You can go there and you could order my book. You can also order on Amazon. If you like it, please feel free to leave a review on Amazon.

Bobby Lee: If you’re listening to the podcast, you’re probably in the industry, crypto industry. Both the book and the wallets, these are for newbies. Right? I really cater to the new audience. I really want to get more people into crypto. I want to help onboard the next 1,000,000,000 users in crypto. So, I’ve done that through an exchange. Now, I’m doing it through a wallet company. And now, most recently as an author through a book.

Bobby Lee: So hopefully, we can get more new people onboard into cryptocurrency and help them not think about just the fiat money they have in their wallet. That’s depreciating every single day. The joke I tell is the hundred dollar bill you have in your wallet, the most it’s ever worth is right now. Meaning, every moment from now on, it will be worth less and less and less. So, that’s a very scary thought.

Frank Curzio: Wow. We’ll leave it there. Listen, Bobby, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I know how busy you are. Again, I wish you so much success with your book. And hopefully, you’ll join us again soon.

Bobby Lee: Yes. Thank you.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, it’s great stuff from Bobby. Just another big name that people able to interview in the Bitcoin space, along with Dan Held a couple of weeks ago. But I would say, I was blown away by both of them. I expected them to be more arrogant, having their chest out, saying, “Hey, I told you so with Bitcoin.” Again, not including today, where you’re seeing the market’s down.

Frank Curzio: But still, these guys were such early adopters and listened to so many people tell them that they were crazy all along. It just wasn’t like that at all. These guys were composed, passionate about what they were talking about. They talked about both the risks and rewards of being a Bitcoin holder. It could go down 80%. I’d say that’s a tough ask for investors, from Bobby. So, it could go down 80%.

Frank Curzio: But we see this thing going up 10x, which is probably more like 15x now with Bitcoin and where it is today. Later today, since we did the interview yesterday afternoon. But great stuff from Bobby. I really liked him. I always say this, but this podcast is about you, not about me. Let me know what you thought, frank@curzioresearch.com.

Frank Curzio: Just really impressed by him, really impressed by the guys that have been able to get on and leaders in this industry. You saw who endorsed his book. So, just knowing the right people is going to allow us to get even greater guests on the show. And these are industry titans within crypto. These are the people you want to know. Crypto is here. It’s here. There’s a lot of leverage, going to come out of the market. We know that. But it’s here.

Frank Curzio: This isn’t like, “Oh, it’s a fad. It’s going to go away.” No. It could come down further, but it’s disrupting industry, after industry, after industry. It’s going to continue to do it for a very, very long time. So, exciting stuff. It’s going to be crazy. It’s back and forth, institutions coming in and out and stuff. Again, we’re seeing this market crash right now, but it’s just great, great names to know in this space.

Frank Curzio: And you’ll be hearing from a lot of them, going forward, which is really awesome. So, let’s bring in Daniel, who I had a great time golfing with yesterday. Right? It was pretty fun.

Daniel Creech: Yeah, absolutely, Frank. You look a little different. You look older and wiser, sir. Happy late birthday.

Frank Curzio: I know. Late birthday. I have to tell you though, if you’re watching this on our Curzio Research YouTube page, I’m going to show you something because I didn’t know that my family was going to do this with my daughters. But they came and there were balloons everywhere in the office. So, I was like, “Ah, I guess I have to keep them there.” But I have it up right now. And here, we have all these cameras.

Daniel Creech: We do have a good a maze to navigate through here.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, it’s pretty awful. I want to get in here, but there’s balloons everywhere. I’m posting in and out. And Daniel’s right behind the camera, I’m showing. But yeah, there’s balloons everywhere. So, a good birthday. It was a lot of fun. It was pretty cool. Thanks for coming out. That was fun, right? Golfing. Man.

Daniel Creech: Yeah, it was perfect. It was raining on the way there, then it cleared up. And it rained when we were done. So, you couldn’t type it any better.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. The only thing that wasn’t perfect is our game. Right?

Daniel Creech: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Frank Curzio: I love golf. You can go out play great-

Daniel Creech: Birthday wishes don’t come true, kids. Let that be a lesson to you.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. Unless you want to get really off, don’t play golf, especially if you play it where, right, Daniel? It’s like the better you get, the more pissed off you get.

Daniel Creech: Yeah.

Frank Curzio: But it’s never like that with any sport, I don’t think, except for golf. But anyway.

Daniel Creech: It’s wild. But it was a great day. Yeah. A lot of fun and a lot of news to get to, man.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, let’s start with-

Daniel Creech: This is basically turning into the Bitcoin celebrity segment every week. We were just joking about last week, “Hey, we’re not going to talk about this every week.” Then, Bitcoin drops 30%.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. I know. Right? This is pretty crazy. And let’s talk about that a little bit, because we’ve seen this drop. I’ve said there’s a lot of leverage… We had this conversation yesterday before this drop, on the way to the golf course where I was saying all these places offer yield. Right? Interest. And where is that coming from? I’m still not too sure how, again, yield farming and you have to put in a certain place.

Frank Curzio: But you’re talking about 6%, 7%, 8% yields on some of these things. When the market crashes, that’s what you see now. You’re got to see leverage come out. I want to see how that works and how, if they’re still able to offer that, where it’s from. Obviously, if they’re going to give you a 6%, whoever it is, whoever place that you’re at and they’re placing that token, they say, “Hey, we can give you 4% of 5% on this,” that’s fine.

Frank Curzio: But who’s ever providing that means they’d have to generate a bigger return to that, otherwise they wouldn’t do it. And that’s easy to do in crypto, because crypto is on fire. It’s not so easy to do anymore when you just see a 35% collapse in the market. So, the leverage that you’re going to see come out of this, it could get a little crazy. But a lot of this was spurred, I guess by China, right, Daniel?

Daniel Creech: Yeah. And the crazy thing on the leverage, it’s just like the Robinhood app, you can take out so much, and you have all these kinds of horror stories of people gambling with money they didn’t have and then get margin called and all that. It’s the same in every exchange or every sector. And there’s definitely leverage in rapid Bitcoin, all that kind of stuff.

Daniel Creech: The interesting thing on the China, Frank, is there’s news headlines and Twitter feeds out there floating around that China’s banned payments and cryptocurrencies and all kinds of things. And yet then you have the other, the naysayers and no doubt, Bitcoin backers saying, “Hey, this is nothing new. This is their same stance. They’re just warning again about, don’t speculate. This is really risky. This is real volatile.”

Daniel Creech: You guys touched on it in your interview with Bobby today. China’s not a fan of crypto because they’re such a controlling society and a controlled government. That shouldn’t shock anybody. So, something else has to be here. Either a fund got blown up or I don’t know. We do live in the information age, so bad news travels faster. It’s just hard to believe that that triggered people to get so nervous that everything just unwound 30%, 40%.

Daniel Creech: But hey, it’s one thing to say how volatile crypto is, and then when you experience it. So, anybody that’s holding crypto now and seize that down this morning is like, “Whoa, okay.”

Frank Curzio: Yeah. And you’ve got to be very, very careful. Even in our newsletter, we take small positions, and we build them up over time. There’s a lot of volatility. a lot of our positions were 2% in and they took off tremendously. So now that you see them coming down, it’s going to give us an opportunity to maybe purchase a little bit, because these things really, really took off. But you’re not going to see the gains that you’ve seen.

Frank Curzio: You can in some new names, but you can’t expect that with every name. And that’s what was happening in a bull market. Right? Everything goes higher. But you look at them, more than 8,000,000,000 positions were liquidated, and that’s over the past 24 hours. 8,000,000,000. And you’re right when it comes to China. Right? That’s one part of the news. And that’s really what driving it, I guess, because if every place says it’s down because of China.

Frank Curzio: But like you said, when China came out, they said, “Virtual currency is not a real currency, and should not and cannot be used as currency in the market.” Right? That was a joint state issued by the people’s Bank of China, the government. Right? So, China’s basically limiting institutional activity, which is already limited. Right? Nobody thought they were going to reverse their stance.

Frank Curzio: But why is this surprising? Because this is the right move for China, because they’re about to launch their own digital currency. What’s the surprise here? It’s basically news that’s enough to push the market down 30%. Maybe it’s just that train that’s on the top of the hill that maybe just needed a push, because it was inflated and there’s a lot of leverage and a lot of people making money in this thing, and Dogecoin, which we know is a fake, is going high.

Frank Curzio: A lot of stupid stuff is happening. And even the people who are diehard to this industry, see it as well and say, “Hey, look at this shitcoin pump dump,” all this, whatever they call the shitcoins and stuff. But the China thing should have been factored in, but you’re right. There’s something more bigger here. And I would say it’s Elon Musk, because Elon Musk reversed his stance.

Frank Curzio: So, we can talk about that, which I thought was funny. And that pushed the Bitcoin, Dogecoin down a little bit. This was before the massive sell-off from today. Right? So, what is it? This is your favorite guy in the world. I had no idea. I understand the attention. I get it. I see it. I know it personally because I’ve seen it, Daniel, when I worked on Wall Street where I worked at a lot of great, great people.

Frank Curzio: And Street.com was the greatest stepping stone. They hated that I said that, but it was, because everybody who went there left because it was hard to succeed and be big there. Right? You couldn’t. And you had to go someplace else. They had their people there and that was it. And you were not going to be able to break into that. So, a lot of people are earn their stripes. And you see, they write for all the major newspapers across the world and everything.

Frank Curzio: But when I’m looking at just crypto in general coming down, it reminds me, and even I saw Cramer talking about it too, but I don’t know how much further it can come down from here. I really don’t.

Daniel Creech: Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see the 20,000 to 25,000. J.P. Morgan was out with a note saying about fair value. It was about 35,000. And just since I’ve been at the office this morning, it’s been around 40, down to 30, and now it’s about 37. So yeah, it’s crazy volatile. Elon Musk and all them, that’s a good segue, because I want to know what do you think would be the next announcement to come out?

Daniel Creech: And what I mean by that is, Elon Musk, yeah, he’s just a… If anybody’s buying Bitcoin because Elon Musk, I wonder if they’re going to hold it like he says they’re still doing. He came out today and said Tesla has diamond hands, which is the fun thing thrown around all the time on social media about holding forever and all that kind of thing. So, Elon Musk, it is what it is.

Daniel Creech: Michael Saylor, CEO of MicroStrategy tweeted out yesterday, May 18th, that they bought an additional 229 Bitcoins for $10 million at little over 43,000. That brings their cost basis to 24,450 per coin.

Frank Curzio: And that’s why I lost my train of thought for a minute, because I just checked on Bitcoin, which is down 15%. So, it was down 17%. It’s down 15%. It’s still down a lot.

Daniel Creech: Oh, yeah.

Frank Curzio: But what I was saying about Elon Musk while I was talking about The Street is, I saw a lot of people actually become not famous, but they started going on CNBC. And then, they started going on these news channels and like Elon Musk. He’s a billionaire and so is Mark Cuban. But the attention that you need and how you change as a person when that happens, I’ve seen it firsthand with everything, with everybody there.

Frank Curzio: Cramer first, on his show as well. And I was there right at the beginning, right before we started and right through for the first five years or so. And just people who are on that show and people who go into… And they just change where it’s like an addiction. I just feel like – where am I going with this? Elon Musk, a huge supporter of Bitcoin. We bought it. On the balance sheet.

Frank Curzio: We know that you sold a little bit, so you can make sure your numbers are really good for the quarter and you made your earnings. I get it. But now to come and say that we have to find in a different cryptocurrency because the energy that it takes up and electricity. What has changed in three, four weeks with this guy? And is it the attention? But I could tell you, the reason why Tesla is so high, Daniel, the reason why everything this guy does is… If he gets into Dogecoin, he’s got a loyal following.

Frank Curzio: It’s a religion. These people are going to buy. They don’t look evaluations. Okay. At all. You can say that with everything that guy has, the evaluations are incredible. By doing this with Bitcoin, you’re starting to segregate your audience and those diehards. And they’re like, “Wait a minute. We’re a diehard Bitcoin. Yeah. Elon Musk is there. We love him and got to buy Tesla’s with Bit.”

Frank Curzio: And now, you’re going to start losing that crowd. I think it’s very dangerous. And maybe that’s it. I don’t know, but I don’t think this move is China. I think you’re right. I think it’s something that’s even bigger.

Daniel Creech: Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see play out. Like I said, last week there was headlines that were saying how Point72, Steve Cohen and other big name hedge funds are looking to get into the crypto space. We know Goldman Sachs is doing up their crypto trading desk again, which they started and canceled during the last huge bull and bear market in 2017 and 2018. J.P. Morgan is more involved now.

Daniel Creech: So, somebody’s taking advantage of this huge volatility. And the big takeaway here, I think for investors is, if you know what you own and why you own it. So, if you like Bitcoin at 60,000 or 50,000, how the hell do you not buy it at 30,000 or 35,000? Because nothing fundamentally changed, other than you have news about China maybe cracking down.

Daniel Creech: If you’re not anticipating governments and/or anybody else, trying to crack down, and with the climate change area, it’s not going to be smooth sailing. So, that to me is what’s interesting. If you’re holding forever and now you’re thinking about selling, it just proves your money is emotional, and you better know why you’re in what you’re in. That’s the big takeaway.

Frank Curzio: Here’s a takeaway. But I could tell you. It sounds easier than say, it’s like, “Hey, I’m going to buy the stock. I want to wait for it to come down to 20%.” It comes down to 20%, then you’re not going to buy it, because now it came down 20% for a reason. You’re like, “Oh, shit.” So, it changes your thesis.

Daniel Creech: Hey, good point. And full disclosure. I’m down on a couple positions. And it sucks. But again, nothing changed as to why I bought some. So, I did buy a little bit more in one. One of our recommendations. And yeah, it sucks to see red, but it is what it is.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. And it’s tough with those emotions because you’re talking about people that if you own Bitcoin or even Ethereum, where Ethereum one is insane. It went from 900 to 4,500 in a couple of months, like two months or so. That move was just insane. And yeah, you look at people that have maybe whatever. You’ve seen accounts go from $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 to millions of dollars. Right?

Frank Curzio: Now, you’re in millions of dollars and you’re like, “Holy cow, this thing’s worth a million and a half.” Bitcoin’s down almost 50% from its highs. Ethereum is down sharply. Litecoin is down sharply. A lot of these things have pulled back, and now you see that balance, and you’re like, “Holy shit. I want to get out.” How don’t you get emotional about that?

Daniel Creech: Oh, absolutely.

Frank Curzio: Especially if you’re not used to investing or if you don’t have a lot of money and everything, which is a lot of people in this industry. They’ve had their whole nest egg in here. This is all they do. Even some of the guys I tell, with Bobby Lee. They have other projects within crypto, but a lot of it is based on where Bitcoin, did the crypto industry continuing to grow? But it just goes to show you.

Frank Curzio: And another thing. You talked about Michael Saylor. Every time I talk about Peter Schiff, I do get a couple of emails saying, “Frank, what are you talking about?” I don’t like to talk about anyone who’s not here to defend themselves, but the reason why this guy is an asshole is he’s out there calling out Michael Saylor. And this is why I don’t like Schiff.

Frank Curzio: He’s out there. He’s first to call, “I told you. Look, it’s down 50%. This is a crash.” All this crap. He’s calling them out. Calling all Bitcoin people a bunch of idiots, even though he said it was going to zero, and he said to sell at 5,000, 10,000. Right? But more important is if you look at this guy’s performance and his funds, you got wrecked if you invested in this guy in the last 15 years.

Frank Curzio: You got wrecked. They’re all underperforming their benchmark. Their benchmark. So, that means you would have been better off not knowing this guy. Right? So, I don’t want to bring that up. But when you are just going after people all the time, and want to debate them, and you have this thesis and it’s never changed, which makes them more of the most dangerous people ever. If you have a permabull or permabear, then trust me.

Frank Curzio: I’ve worked around these people. People who don’t change their mind will get you destroyed. And they’re still going to make their money in the media, just like he just makes money a gold, has all those things set up overseas, and stuff like that. That’s fine. And this is a guy that’s charging 5%, four and a half to 5% fees on his funds. Are you kidding me? If you are icon and him them out, that’s fine. Right? I get it. That’s fine.

Frank Curzio: But for this guy to be calling out anyone, I’m like, “Come on, man.” He’s a celebrity. He’s a great celebrity. I wouldn’t ever invest in the guy. You’re down tremendously. He missed the biggest bull run in history. And I’ll debate them all day, but I am a big fan of gold now. I believe inflation, the last five weeks you saw a massive transformation for me. I’ve never really spoken… Hopefully, like I said, you’ve got to worry based on the numbers, and they’ve gotten worse.

Frank Curzio: And now, everybody’s on board with the inflation thesis. And he is an inflation guy, and he’s smart when it comes to looking at inflation and statistics. He’s been calling for inflation for about 25 years and has been wrong. Now, he’s going to be right, and he’s going to take all the credit, and revise his crash book for the ninth time since the market’s finally probably going to crash, if it does crash. I don’t know. Anyway, my point is gold, four month high. And Daniel’s laughing at me going on this rant.

Daniel Creech: It’s a good one.

Frank Curzio: You know what? Just be fair. Seriously. Against that? I just-

Daniel Creech: I’m just enjoying it. You don’t have to defend yourself with me.

Frank Curzio: But I hate that shit. Give me a break. It’s like a guy talking trash to Michael Jordan after Michael Jordan maybe has a five game streak of playing bad. It’s like the New York Yankees.

Daniel Creech: He only had 45 points out of 55.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. But it’s like the New York Yankees. I remember Jeter, it was a 15 game stretch or something. He didn’t get ahead or whatever. And I went to a Yankee game, and they’re booing Derek Jeter. How do you boot Derek Jeter? I’m like, “Are you kidding me? You’re booing Derek Jeter.”

Daniel Creech: Now Frank, you know I don’t know anything about baseball. Come on. You know who that is.

Frank Curzio: They’re just worst fans ever.

Daniel Creech: Hey, the big winner is gold. No doubt. And goldbugs are taking.

Frank Curzio: Oh, they’re everywhere on Twitter.

Daniel Creech: And I don’t want to agree with Frank on everything, but I do not, and we’ve talked about this in the past, I don’t understand the whole Bitcoin or gold thing. I understand that you get passionate about things. Anyway, if you’re a goldbug, and I’ve been going through some Twitter feeds and websites, and it is hilarious because you have to admit, you have a great argument. That store of value, it’s fallen 50% in days and hours. Huge pullbacks. A lot of volatility.

Daniel Creech: So no doubt, the conversation when things like this, when it’s at 60, it’s a store of value and all that. But when it gets cut in half, the goldbugs definitely have an argument here. I’m really surprised, gold’s only up about 1%. It’s up less than 1%. Gold stocks are doing. Okay. It’s kind of a mixed bag. I don’t understand how you don’t have both, going forward.

Frank Curzio: Even Bobby Lee said he owned both.

Daniel Creech: Yeah. And really appreciate to hear that.

Frank Curzio: That was really cool. Right? I’m like, “These people want to hate each other. And gold. Why can’t you own a little bit of both?” And I’ve owned a little bit of both and-

Daniel Creech: And all it’s going to take is, if you get millennials to buy gold stocks and they start going up 200%, 300%, yeah, it’s not a thousand, but that’s volatility. And they’re easy to buy. So, it’ll be interesting to see that. It’s a greater hedge against inflation. It’s got history behind it. Gold’s not going anywhere, but it’ll be interesting to see how much money flows into it, I guess. I’m surprised it’s not more today. And it’s good to see gold up instead of down with everything else, because the markets are pulling back about 1%.

Frank Curzio: That’s one of the biggest things, Daniel. In this whole thing, I think one of the biggest takeaways is, for me, if you have institutions, institutions love. I’m talking about hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars, they love to buy assets that are uncorrelated with everything else. And everything has been correlated for a very long time, ever since the 2008 credit crisis. We see how correlated everything is.

Frank Curzio: You want to buy banks and energy. Yes. Some sectors outperform other sectors, but a lot of it is correlated. Right? Things going up and going down. Today, you’re seeing the market really getting nailed, over 1% down across the board. At least last time I looked. Every time I look, I lose my train of thought, so I’m not going to look at all the statistics. But you’re seeing Bitcoin getting crushed.

Frank Curzio: And now you’re like, “Okay, is this an inflation hedge?” Because inflation is here and now this thing’s crashing. So now, you lose that thesis. And a big thesis for institutions, “Hey, this is different. This acts on its own.” And they love that. Right? Something that’s uncorrelated. But now you’re seeing everything down at the same time. That’s my biggest takeaway here, not Musk changed his mind or China, which again, China was never going to get… They’re going to launch our own digital currency.

Frank Curzio: They came out with that news a few weeks ago. Maybe a little bit over a month ago. So of course, they want the market to themselves. Right? So, this is not new news, like you said. To me, that’s the biggest takeaway that not too many people are talking about, but we’ll see where this ends up. There’s a lot of leverage and it could go lower. But it is interesting, like you said, with gold.

Frank Curzio: And gold, one of my largest positions across the board. Gold. I did have a large position in uranium. I sold half of them, probably a little early, just because I want to see uranium prices go higher. And they haven’t gone higher. They’re starting to a little bit higher now. So, I’m well positioned for this. Hopefully, you are as well. We have gold stocks throughout our portfolios in both portfolios, in Curzio Venture Opportunities and Curzio Research Advisory.

Frank Curzio: And I think I like the steady move. It’s not a huge rush into gold where it’s up 15%, 20%, 25%, and next month’s going to be down 20%. It’s nice to see more and more money pushing into this. And you’re seeing it even in the institutional levels where I track the flows. And Daniel, you get those reports as well from Bank of America, will we track the inflows. Gold is actually seeing money flow into it for the first time in about four or five months.

Frank Curzio: So not surprising here, that it’s going higher. And also, not surprising to see all the goldbugs out on Twitter, going crazy saying, “I told you so,” even though they’re still down tremendously on their bet saying that Bitcoin was going to go nowhere, because most of these gold people hate Bitcoin and that’s why they’re out, because this way they could say, “I told you so about Bitcoin.” Also, “Look where gold is. We told you so.”

Frank Curzio: But it’s just at the end of the day, you can’t listen to all these people. And I just hate when people are extremists because extremists usually get destroyed. And everybody that follows them gets even more destroyed than they are. And that’s why, looking at permabulls and permabears, especially if you’re following those guys on Twitter. Right?

Frank Curzio: Daniel, you could set up where, “Hey, I’m following a lot of guys on gold, following a lot of guys on Bitcoin.” And even a Bitcoin crack, it’s crazy how impressive they’ve been through 40, 50, 60. “You’ve got to buy. It’s great. You’ve got to buy. It’s the greatest thing ever. It’s going, it’s going, it’s going.” So, it’s just a little crazy. Right?

Daniel Creech: Yeah, absolutely. It’s entertaining. You’re going to have people on really polarization of any argument, which that’s okay. So, just try to sift through the noise. You don’t want to get over-leveraged or one way or the other. I guess I sound so boring and silly. I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t own both. I really don’t. So, anyway.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. Well, let’s move on here because there’s something that I try to… And this like an educational segment, guys. When the 13Fs come out… You should have access to this. There’s different services that have access to it – it makes it a lot easier for the services we have where they lay everything out for you. But 13Fs are the reports that cover, I think it’s over a hundred million dollars in assets that they have to report all their holdings. Right?

Frank Curzio: All the equity holdings. And there’s their buys, their sells, their holds, and they do it every quarter. And they all come out around the same time within a two-day stretch, three day stretch or so.

Frank Curzio: But you get to see a lot of stuff there not from the Renaissance Technologies that the Six Sigmas. I’m not talking about the high frequency trading firms that front run and just, they don’t care about fundamentals or anything. I’m talking about, like Appaloosa, Baupost, Berkshire. You want to look at and going through these Daniel, I know you went through them as well. One of the biggest takeaways here, and again, guys, just to let you know, these are positions that these investment firms and hedge funds have taken last quarter they could be out of these positions right now, actually a month later. So, they could be, but the managers that I look at usually hold things. And when they get into something, they add over time, they’re not looking to flip it right away most of the time.

Frank Curzio: So one of the things I noticed is the massive move out of the biggest technology names. Amazon, Twitter, Appaloosa sold. Baupost has eBay, Viacom, Fox, you have a lot of… Tesla sells Elliot Management, selling Tesla, FMR, top sales, Apple, Amazon, Tesla, CRM, Adobe. Greenlight was another surprise where, here’s a guy that was preaching about golden inflation. Yet his top sales, one of them were GDX and I mean, you sold it like a month now would be the best time, that I was just surprised to see that. But I’m also seeing a lot of funds get into more mid-caps and small caps.

Frank Curzio: Even Greenlight API group, it’s an engineering safety inspection for industrial companies, $3 billion market cap, one of his top buys. Icahn with a Bausch Health was a little bit bigger, but first energy Dana, Xerox, just stocks that you don’t really hear often in these things, or I see often, and then you have Maverick, selling technology as well, Melvin as well. So Facebook, Melvin sold Maverick sold Facebook, Alibaba, but just a lot of Amazon sales, a lot of phases. A couple of companies added a Facebook. And one of the biggest buys I saw have been Uber last quarter, but I wanted to get your take because it’s a lot there guys, but really you can learn a lot from this and these trends and after. I’ll show you how to make money off this too. But Daniel, I want to go through.

Daniel Creech: Yeah, definitely go through them just to educate yourself. Like Frank said, I mean, there are certain ones that are just more trading. So, these things have to, the reason you’ve seen them, a lot of the big names disclose them in just a day or so is because they have 45 days from the end of the quarter to disclose these. So, these are all dated, March 31st. A lot can happen. So, you want to, depending on what you’re looking at, Whale Wisdom and different things breaks it down. That’s a free site, Whale Wisdom, and you can look at changing shares. So, new positions, increased positions, closed positions, decreased positions. The technology thing was interesting. There was a handful of those big guys getting exposure to oil, Facebook and Microsoft stood out to me because people either initiated from the handful that I follow more initiated or increase those positions than sold or decreased in Facebook and Microsoft.

Daniel Creech: So, it’ll be kind of interesting to see the split of the FANGS in the high technology stocks. I just don’t see how they don’t continue on higher with their margins and the tailwinds they have from a macro perspective. Oh, Berkshire went from over 52 million shares in Wells Fargo to less than a million.

Frank Curzio: They sold Merk and CVX.

Daniel Creech: Why the hell don’t you sell it all? I don’t know. I’m sure there’s tax rate. And the other thing to consider like Greenlight, you said I was shocked to see him sell the gold as well, but you never know what these guys need in form of liquidation, redemptions and all that. So, just take all this with a grain of salt, but it is good to see what some of the smartest and brightest and best performers are looking at an adding to. Another one is Icahn. He keeps buying Xerox. That’s very intriguing to me as if you pull up a chart from that. It is just a well down from the coronavirus crash in last year.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. I’m looking at this right now where just to show you guys why this is important and how I look at this. It’s not that I see. Let’s take Appaloosa. David Tepper. And I was just checking out one of the stocks, he buys $8 billion market cap. This is a Paysafe. So top buys… So, his top buys are Chesapeake, Viacom, D.R. Horton and he has his top sells there. But when I look at the top buys and the other ones just had Paysafe was the one I just mentioned. So, that symbol is P-S-F-E. So how do I make money on this? So, what I would do is track these stocks. So, I know that Tepper who I’m very familiar with, I’m a big fan of, he usually adds to his positions over time. He doesn’t take like a max position right off the bat.

Frank Curzio: So, when he gets into these, he’s usually in these things for a while. Most of the time, unless anyone’s thesis changes, you’re going to change or most of the time. So, if he’s buying Chesapeake here and I see it now, I’m like, Hey, it’s in my head. He bought Chesapeake and just pick wherever it is at 50. If I see it, come down to me, that’s a big buying opportunity. And if it comes down, if I see insiders buying. Now, I know that, hey, David Tepper is going to be there to buy as well, because he just bought this thing and he’s probably going to be added to his position. And it gives you an opportunity to get in sometimes 10, 15, 20% below where these funds, where their cost basis is. And that’s how I always look at this. And so maybe nothing happens, maybe Chesapeake rocket’s high from here.

Frank Curzio: I don’t own it. Maybe D. R. Horton rockets from here. I don’t own it, but if they do come down, that’s when I start really researching these things and say, hey, didn’t David Tepper, just buy this thing and it’s down. Why’s it down? Well, It had a bad quarter, which any company could have bought, but everything seems intact. And it seems like a sell off where it looks like that Tepper was going to come in and buy, maybe see insiders is buying. You’re getting at a good price, but that’s how I look at this. That’s why it’s so important to look at, where the trends are happening, what they’re buying, but I’m seeing a lot of smaller, mid-cap buys. Usually these are all large caps. These are billion dollar funds. A lot of mid-caps are being bought here. And where’s that rotation coming from?

Frank Curzio: It’s coming out of large tech stocks. I mean the biggest names that they made, the easiest gains on the Apples, Microsofts, Amazons, I mean at AQR is another big firm that that top sells Apple, Amazon, Microsoft MasterCard. Just going down a list here, I don’t know if you saw anything else there, Daniel, that stood out, but those are the things that stood out the most to me. Top sell GDX. I don’t know why Greenlight would do that he just tatted inflation. He got it and he seemed like he was early to that trade, but now it seems like he got out of it a little bit too early. But I don’t know who knows where the market’s going to go. And a lot of Tesla sales here, guys, a lot, I’ve seen a lot Pershing Square.

Frank Curzio: One of their top buys with Domino’s. But that was interesting Soros, top buys, Amazon, Viacom, Google. So, one of the few that’s adding now, you could hate Soros for personal reasons and whatever side of politics you’re on or whatever. I mean, those guys that work for him are brilliant and they have amazing, amazing returns and Soros is brilliant when it comes to investing. Don’t send me any emails or anything. I know people have personal feelings about the guy and stuff like that. I get it. I’m talking about it from an investor perspective, which my job is to make you money. He’s one of the guys that you want to follow.

Frank Curzio: Just doing this for 25 years. He’s very, very early on trends. The fact that he’s buying some of these technology stocks is definitely interesting. And one more thing here, Daniel is one of the biggest buys that I’m seeing is Uber. Uber is a buy and a lot of these places. So, I don’t know if you saw anything else that you wanted to mention, but all these names come out and it’s really great. And then for me, it just, it really helps me find new ideas. It does helps me find new ideas.

Daniel Creech: The big takeaway. I mean, like you said, make some lists, track them when you do see a hedge fund or somebody take a huge position. Make a note of that to your point, with Paysafe. Third Point run by Dan Loeb, they bought 41 and a half million shares. So, Tepper has 10 million, started a new position. Third Point bought 41 and a half million. That’s a big deal. It doesn’t guarantee anything, but it makes you start looking at it and all that. No, nothing else really stood out to me. I like to see again, my big takeaway is the new positions are exciting. I want to see what increased positions and closed positions are. I think that’s the real meat here. And again, a lot of salt here taken with this because what’s in the news right now about Tesla. Is that The Big Short.

Frank Curzio: Burry.

Daniel Creech: Burry, suppose you can see headlines about how he’s got 40% or more of his fund betting on Tesla puts, because you have to, but you don’t get all the information. So, don’t believe everything you read. It’s very, very hard to believe that he would do a time dated bet on half, roughly half of your fund. So, you can buy, you don’t. If you’re buying puts or calls, they don’t have to, from the easy filings, you don’t tell what strike and price they paid. So, be cautious when you see a market value number representing shares versus actual options. Again, just don’t believe everything you read. Come on.

Frank Curzio: I know, but also.

Daniel Creech: Did you see any of that? Do you know what I’m talking about?

Frank Curzio: Yeah I know what you’re talking about, he’s got a big shot position now and puts on Tesla.

Daniel Creech: Right, he bought a lot of puts, but you don’t know the strike. There’s a lot of details you don’t know. So, people just take that in and say, oh, well, this has got to be worth X amount of millions and millions and millions. It’s just don’t get caught up on that.

Frank Curzio: But there are funds Melvin Capital that are encouraged, even Burry. They’re encouraged to take massive leverage positions because if they’re wrong, what happens? Basically nothing, it depends. Some of these guys have money in their fund, but they’re already extremely rich, but it’s other people’s money. People are betting with him because he’s a great investor and you using other people’s money to leverage the hell out of it. So, if you lose what happens, okay, I lose it. Sorry. What happened to Melvin Capital? Nothing. Nothing. What happened to them? I think they got more money. They raised more money 4 billion. And that’s what happens. These guys will start another fund and raise a whole bunch of money. But if they’re right. Now, you get the massive, massive payday. So, if you see Tesla crash, that’s where you get the massive payday. And again, it’s that, he’s one of the best short sellers and I get it, but I don’t care who you are in this industry.

Frank Curzio: Wall Street is ruthless. It’s about money 100% of the time. And when you’re down, they will take everything from you. You could be laying naked in the street, with your socks on and they’ll pull your socks off and say, nope, we’re taking that too. That’s how Wall Street is. That’s how you have to look at Wall Street and believe me, because one of the things that you said Daniel was, hey, I don’t know if he’d bet half his fund. Yes, he would. A lot of these people will on a time value of whatever. And again, there’s probably hedges around that. There is definitely hedges around that.

Daniel Creech: I’m just saying. You don’t, that’s a far-fetch and you can do whatever you want. But I’m just saying like, I doubt that it’s anywhere near what they’re reporting. If you actually had all the details, that’s all I’m saying. So, that’s what I meant. Use it as an educational thing. Think through it, do some of your own due diligence, but it just financial media click bait is all it is.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. And like we mentioned with Tesla. Elon, the reason why that stock is high, he’s got a cult following. It’s not based on fundamentals. And what I would be pissed off about it? Just shut up, like get off Twitter and shut up because you’re losing like those die-hards right now by talking about stupid things to get attention. And in the meantime you have a significant advantage right now, a massive advantage if your Tesla because there’s no cars on the market. There’s none, go to your dealer there is nothing. There is a couple on a lot, the lots of half empty. You can’t build your own car, without getting it in less than six months it’s probably going to be even longer. The chip shortage is going to last well into next year. Guys, trust me well into next year, talk to the best sources out there.

Frank Curzio: It’s not like a quick solution. Oh, is going to be fixed. No. So, the electric vehicle market, these guys can’t get these things on their lot, which gives. Tesla. When I went to buy a car in there. I’m not going to buy a Tesla, but it was three weeks to four weeks. That’s a big difference for months, four, six, eight months, wherever it’s going to be. And you have that EV market right now almost to yourself and you could sell a shit load of cars there is massive demand for it, for cars. But the reason why you used car market is on fire is even me. I told that story like a week ago, two weeks ago where my lease is up. There’s no new cars to buy. I’m going to have to buy a used car.

Frank Curzio: That’s why there are fire. With Tesla, if you have this guy just shut up about everything. I think you’re going to see those numbers just go much, much, much higher sales go much, much higher because the demand is there. And there, in the perfect market, their the king of that market, competition was supposed to enter this year. It’s not, it’s going to be pushed back another full 12 months, at least. So, again, if we get a guy that can shut up, it will probably be really good, but who knows because Tesla is now starting to come down a lot too.

Daniel Creech: I mean, I wouldn’t bet on that. Yeah. I wouldn’t bet on him being quiet.

Frank Curzio: No, no, no, I wouldn’t either. So the last thing I want to talk to you about, Dan, is and AT&T. This is a position is in one of our newsletters, Curzio Research Advisory, and I usually don’t give away positions. But I talked about AT&T for such a long time. It’s one of my biggest holdings and I got a lot of questions on it. So you know, that one I’m going to show up 10% before the news. And it went up a little bit where they announced the Time Warner thing. So, you’re going to spin off their Time Warner assets to Discovery. And the new division is going to be called New Discovery.

Frank Curzio: And then people started figuring out and kind of seeing the uncertainty and someone who follows Wall Street. Usually it takes a day for analysts to come out with new models and showing all the numbers behind this. It’s been three days and analysts haven’t updated cause it’s still a little confused and that creates uncertainty. And then people go like, well, they’re going to have to cut their dividend. And that was taken as a negative. But for me, when I look at this deal Daniel, I think it’s fantastic all around.

Daniel Creech: Yeah. Listen, this is a good investing lesson because AT&T has been a poster child for how not to buy assets and roll up. They paid 85 billion or so for Warner Media assets. Now, they’re spinning those off.

Daniel Creech: If you’ve been in the stock for a long time and it’s been dead money, you’ve still collected a nice dividend. I can understand your frustration, but for us, it’s a relatively new recommendation and you’re looking forward. They have a newer CEO, Elliot Management that we were talking about 13F’s run by Paul Singer is in there pushing for change. So, I think it’s a good idea because it’s going to get them back to focusing on their 5g and their core business. And they’re basically going to, they took away all the cash flow issues and questions about their dividend payment. Yeah, I think it’s a good thing for us, but we’re in it recently. We haven’t been putting up with the drama, getting to this point and I think that’s a big takeaway.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. And I want to put numbers behind it guys for those you don’t know. So, the big thing about AT&T is they’re like, why did you buy Time Warner? It’s not your business. And you could tell, even when you look at HBO and Max, it’s a little clunky, a little bit. It’s not a great platform, but they do have amazing content. So AT&T said, listen, every analyst is like, what a waste of money. You blew the money. You pay $85 billion for it. By spitting off these assets, they get $43 billion in cash. Plus, the 71% stake in the new media company, which at current valuations, based on the math. The numbers that I’m using. It’s going to be close to $60 billion at that’s $103 billion. So, $18 billion more than what you paid for Time Warner, which everyone thought it was the worst deal ever.

Frank Curzio: And it was horrible. So AT&T, credit to them, okay, fine. You know, this is 2018. They closed this deal again, the justice department didn’t allow it to happen. They close it. And then media presence within this AT&T when you look at the whole company, when the reason why like is because they literally in everyone’s household in one way or another, if you watch a CNN, if you watch an HBO, if you have AT&T cellular service. You can go through so many different ways that this company actually is inside everybody’s house in some way or another, which is incredibly valuable. They just don’t have the management team to actually run that. So they said, okay, here’s what we’re going to do. Let’s spin it off. They’re going to spin it off, new companies, New Discovery. It’s going to be one of the biggest media platforms with loads of amazing content.

Frank Curzio: The big kicker here, they’re going to spend more than 20 billion on new content. Anyone that, has been watching streaming for very, very long time will understand this. The reason why I don’t like Disney, everyone’s like they got the best content Disney. You’re not going to pay money to watch Cinderella 25 times. It’s new content. That’s why Netflix is the king with all the new content and the series people die to binge and watch all those. It’s all about new content. Netflix paying 17 billion. Disney said they’re going to pay around 12, 13, billion. I have no idea where they going to get this. I do know where they’re going to get the money from. They’re going to raise money because they’re not generating cash flow because a lot of their businesses are still shut down. They don’t have the recurring revenue and they have Amazon getting into the market.

Frank Curzio: But you’re talking about a company that’s going to spend more than anyone in the industry on new content predicting, they’re going to get 200, 300 million subscribers, have a 100 million right now. So, you have the existing team now it’s going to go back AT&T because go back to its old roots, become a telecommunication company, but it’s not a boring telecommunication company anymore. I mean, this is a 5g play, and they’re rolling out fiber, which are going to go even more aggressively into dozens of new markets. That’s where they generate the largest average revenue per user. Out of every single segment, they generate a fortune off these people. And they’re one of the biggest players in 5g, which they did pay a lot for this spectrum. So, as for the dividend, it’s going to be cut. It’ll probably be cut by around 50%, but it was like seven and a half percent.

Frank Curzio: I mean, amounts of $8 billion in savings. So, based on the current deal structure, it should amount. They’re going to have, they’re going to pay like a three and a half percent yield. Now on the new AT&T, based on my numbers, and it’s still double the S&P 500. Now, if that bothers you, it’s important to realize this. We’ve seen it in the last, since the credit crisis, you’re going to get a premium. Even before the credit crisis, you’re going to get a premium valuation. If you’re a growth company, AT&T trades at 10 times earnings, they pay a dividend at 10 times the market is trading at 21 times fold earnings. They traded at 10 times earnings. How do you get that premium? Because you’re taking that eight billion. And now you’re putting that towards content or your point out more to rolling out. Now, you’re putting into growth initiatives. That’s going to force AT&T to be rerated.

Frank Curzio: If they execute and they’re trading at 10 times, fold earnings based on these numbers right now, if that gets rerated to a 17X, 20X, you talk about a double and a stock price. Instead of getting paid an extra 3% yield, you got to put it in perspective, guys, if you really want to make money on AT&T this is an amazing, amazing strategy that they’re doing. That’s why Elliot endorse everyone’s endorsing it. But the cutting the dividend people just get so negative on it. I said, look at it this way, Daniel, Exxon. I said, these guys are idiots for not cutting their dividend. I said, they’re going to have to cut it. Unless oil prices go higher. They should cut it. They should cut it. I think he got up to like 7, 7.5%, right? I don’t know where it is now.

Frank Curzio: The stock went tremendously higher. So, then you have people say, well, that’s good. They didn’t cut dividend. No you’re idiots for not cutting the dividend because that divided amounts to billions of dollars that you could have bought assets at the absolute low. When oil was trading in a future markets at zero, you could have bought some of the biggest companies using maybe seven, eight, nine, $10 billion instead. Wow, look, I got an extra three and a half percent in the biggest oil boom. That we’ve seen in such a short period that rebounded. And for me, that’s how you have to look AT&T do you want that. Yeah, it’s a nice yield. They have tons of cashflow coming in. They can own 71% of the New Discovery it’s called, which is the largest pure play streaming company. One of the largest that plans on spending an industry leading $20 billion, that’s a pure growth play.

Frank Curzio: And you’re going to be putting a 20, 25 times multiple on that, or even higher. If it’s Netflix and Disney, Disney’s trading like at its insane valuation right now, again, they think they could get into this. They’re going to retract. They’re not because they were like, we’re going to a hundred percent streaming. They’re going to retrace. You can’t make money in streaming. It’s almost impossible. It’s very, very hard. I mean, Netflix has proven that it’s a great business if you’re Netflix, but it’s hard. You got to be able to spend billions on new content. But there’s just so many factors here that are a positive fatigue that you’re sitting with. Time Warner, its balance sheet. And in three years, you’ve managed to make a lot of money off of a transaction that people value, not worthless, but they were pretty pissed off and thought they lost a lot of money on. And that’s the way you got to look AT&T, I think.

Daniel Creech: Yeah. Well said. I mean, it’s all about when you’re in, so it’s good for us going forward, but if you’ve been there for a while, I understand frustration. I understand the backend of it, but they’re getting back to their roots and now’s a good time to do it.

Frank Curzio: And finishing up on this note, Daniel too, because other earnings that are reported, we saw Home Depot reported the stock did very well. Target, Walmart, great numbers. Guys, get used to those names. Get used to AT&T, I know that these names, we just like, forget it. Why would you own these when you could own the Microsofts and the Googles, and you’re making these huge returns and earnings to grow in a cashflow, I get it. It’s changing now. These are going to be amazing names to buy that are going to offer you pretty good returns and fantastic returns on a risk adjusted basis, which is the most important phrase investing. I mean, if you want to take on massive risk, that’s okay. If you want to lose all your money, make sure that that gain has got to be 5X, 10X, 20X, not 80%.

Frank Curzio: But with these stocks, you’ve got to be taking on less risk. And these are the names that have all this consumer spending going into the market. You’re going to see a lot of the retail names go high. Even engineers go, I mean, get used to this. But don’t get used to these names going up 40% every year. They’re probably going to go up 12%, 10%. Which is going to be an amazing, amazing return. Which is an amazing return by all standards because it’s usually around 8% average for S&P 500. If you date back to the fifties, when they became 500 companies, joined 8% annually. But since we really had an amazing market over the past few years, people think those returns are going to get smaller, small. They are in certain sectors. You have to allocate money to these names.

Frank Curzio: I know that boring. I know the stupid, this is your money though. This is your money that you want. Instead of putting it in cash, you can put a lot of these names. They have that earnings growth behind them. You’re going to see money flowing into them, which we’re seeing in those 13Fs start owning these. Again, I know it’s hard if you own ESG names and stuff and marijuana names, you’re like, I don’t want to own Target or Walmart, but we did own Walmart. We sold. We do own Target still. We’re doing great in the portfolio. These are the names that we’ve had in our portfolio for a while, right when COVID started, because these businesses were allowed to stay open. But one of the things Daniel, with these new earnings. You have to start adding in a lot of these names of your portfolio, as well as some of these large cap, gold names I think.

Daniel Creech: Yeah absolutely. Just buy them and forget you have them. I mean, there’s a lot of liquidity in the markets. Checks are still going out through government subsidies and different things. Consumers are still strong. Either read the cliff notes or go through a conference call transcript and Target, Walmart. Their same store sales year over year are doing well, obviously. And they’re all talking about how they expect the strength to continue in the consumer. So yeah, buy them and forget about them.

Frank Curzio: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, covered a lot. Right. We went to Bitcoin and went to Elon. Musk covered all the topics for you guys. I don’t know if there’s anything else that we wanted to discuss. I think we hit off of anything right now.

Daniel Creech: No, let’s go golfing again.

Frank Curzio: Yeah. We’re out. We’re going golfing right now. No, my week is so busy. I can’t go any of the days. So, I’m glad we were able to get out, for the rest of this week. So, that was really cool. That was a lot of fun and I really appreciate it. That was good time. But last thing here, guys, I want to mention is Dollar Stock Club still getting a lot of requests for it. It’s our lowest price newsletter. Daniel, I like when you talk about it and I like put you on the spot here, because this is a product that basically you run and you write about, but we are. We take a pick from every name that we interview almost every name and sometimes that might be with a fund, sometimes that might be something that is associated with.

Frank Curzio: And it’s not always, you’re going to hear that pick online when I’m interviewing these people like Bobby Lee. Sometimes, I’m talking to these people before and after and we’re discussing ideas or asking me for ideas. And that’s how I get a lot of these picks, but offers, picks from deleting analysts, leading people in all industries. And I think that’s very powerful. It’s not just, Hey, what does Frank Curzio think. You have that in my newsletters, this is like across the board where you’re getting expert picks that people and these guys run funds. Some of them that you had to have access to them, you need a few million dollars in your account and you’re getting this and we’re doing it at $4 a month to get picks from some of the greatest people that I interview. And it turns out to be like a dollar a week basically. And so I called Dollar Stock Club, but I know if you want to answer that Daniel because we’re all getting a lot of questions. I like just going over exactly what this product is.

Daniel Creech: Yeah, that’s good. It’s a good introductory newsletter. Like I said, it’s real cheap. We do a simple, write-ups few bullet points on why a guest likes a certain sector or company. And it’s just a good pulse on the market. I mean, we get a lot of great guests. And as we get to do that, you get to get all sectors and cryptocurrencies and stocks long and short. So we just take whatever’s on their mind. At the current time we track everything and it’s just a good, it’s another good way to educate yourself, dig into it more, get an overview from 10,000 feet and go from there.

Frank Curzio: Being, in this industry for 25 years. Everybody. I work for everyone. Even today. Everyone’s always looking for new ideas and that’s the product. You’re always going to get new ideas, which is really cool. So again, it’s $4 a month, so it’s a dollar a week. If you want to cancel after a month or a couple of weeks, you could do it. But most people that buy really tend to stay with it because you’re constantly getting really cool ideas and ideas that actually challenged me sometime and challenge everybody. So, if you’re interested that newsletter go to Curzio Research and click the banner on that page for Dollar Stock Club, if not, no problem. But again, getting lots of emails and lots of new people listened to the podcast, which is cool. So, we do have introductory products where you could see exactly what we’re doing before spending a lot of money on our bigger products and this way you could feel us out the research, get a one page reports really, really cool.

Frank Curzio: So, if you’re interested in that again, go to curzioresearch.com and I say this all the time, be sure to watch us because this is going on our YouTube page. So, not that you want to see my ugly face. Daniel’s a lot prettier than me, but it’s really cool. Cause it will bring up different things. And sometimes we show a lot of research, even the interviews to bring up websites and different things trying to educate you guys and show you the websites that we use and stuff, which is really, really cool. So, be sure to check out our YouTube page, if not watches, iTunes is perfectly fine. So, Daniel, thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate it, buddy.

Daniel Creech: All right, everybody have a good week.

Frank Curzio: All right. And that’s it for me. Thank you so much guys, for listening, the emails, everything.

Frank Curzio: I love it. Even when it comes to constructive criticism or things that you like I say to you at the end of the day I’m trying to make you guys money, trying to do the best. And I really appreciate all the emails that always come in, frank@curzioresearch.com. This company wouldn’t exist without you guys. I can’t say it enough. I know I say it a lot at the end of the podcast, but I really, really appreciate it still very, very motivated. I think we’re in an early stage of growth in our company, very, very excited and a lot of this is due to you and a lot of people that you tell about us. So I really, really appreciate it. And I’ll see you guys in seven days, take care.

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